Talk:Mandragora (3.5e Race)

Comments

This race is far too powerful for an ECL of 1! --Franken Kesey 18:53, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Are you going to qualify that in any way? --Aarnott 20:12, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

You are right: there is no race that this race can be compared to. Modifiers that are particularly unique are the: plant type, fortification, two strong poison abilities, and Sad Cry. The two powerful poison abilities make this class much more powerful than any of the races in the SRD of an equal ECL. Yet this races poison abilities may be compared to other classes. Wizards can paralyze at 3rd level (with Ghoul Touch) and poison at 7th level (with Poison). Assassins (requiring at least a 6th level character) can paralyze at 1st level. --Franken Kesey 20:46, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Compare it to a Gnome or Halfling if you need a comparison. Those two are both small creatures with 20 foot land speeds, a +2 bonus to some ability score, and some random minor adjustments. However, the Mandragora has, in addition to those things, a burrow speed (which is arguably a more powerful thing than a fly speed, although this guy needs to breathe), a dangerous bite, and a swift action debuff that gets relevant at later levels. Yes, I agree that it's a bit more powerful than it probably should be, but the Plant type and 25% fortification really aren't a major reason for it. --Foxwarrior 21:08, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I can provide some insight on balance and design. I'll do this as a rundown to keep things organized. There's a lot there so this might run a bit long.

•+2 Charisma: Probably the best thing they get. Really keys them toward a few casting classes (keep that in mind for later) and is fairly useful for a few skillful characters.

•Plant: Plant is nice, but it's been dumbed down here. It's actual bonuses associated are listed below in the race. Anything normally associated with the Plant type that's not listed isn't granted. This has caused confusion in the past. Not sure why.

•Small: Small is pretty common, ups and downs. Useful for casters for the +1 AC. Useful for ranged attackers for +1 attack bonus. Useful for skillful characters with +4 Hide. Just make sure you stay out of grapples, don't need to carry a lot and compensate for smaller base weapons (a very minor thing).

•Speed: 20 foot land speed. Either stay out of melee, get a mount or be good at ambushes (or just wait for opponents to want to engage you). The burrow is handy, but as a full-round action to move 5 feet, not particularly useful in combat, though I'm sure under the right (rather limited) circumstances it could be cheap.

•Immunities might be handy if they ever came up (Note: They probably won't, all except for poison, which still isn't all that common).

•+2 Save bonus on a few saves is nice. Might save your bacon (ginger? potato?) once or twice in your character's lifespan.

•25% Fortification is also nice, but really, if you're getting hit with weapon damage, random critical hits aren't your worry, sneak attacks are, and chances are high it's gonna hit you normally anyways (rogue NPCs are fairly low amongst all the opponents you might fight anyhow). Again, might save your bacon (carrot? turnip?) once or twice in your character's lifespan.

•Vulnerability to Fire: Really more of a flavor thing, but exploitable as a weakness nonetheless for someone who doesn't care to shore up that defense. Fire damage is easy to come by at any level.

•Earthen Rest: Basically just flavor. If you're relying on a couple HP from resting, you've probably got bigger problems to worry about.

•Poisonous Constitution: Amuses me to no end with the possibility of making a character based around tricking big monsters into eating him. Pretty circumstantial otherwise. Low damage and slow acting at that.

•Poisonous Bite: I should really make this not a natural attack. I hate natural attacks. It should just be an attack option as if he were armed or something. Only useful if you plan on being in melee. Hope your opponent doesn't make the save.

•Sad Cry: It's handy if you're not near any allies, and it's comparable to a bardic ability (it isn't discriminating against friend or foe) but a bit trickier to use.

So, there's a lot of features, but they're nearly all pretty situational. I tried to round out abilities and drawbacks (gotta keep drawbacks to a minimum with races anyhow) useful to different character types (as well as be useful throughout the character's career) as a design goal. It probably all is too much in the end (designing around the Plant type is a pain in the ass while trying to fit in everything archetypal about the mandragora). I gotta stop using so many parentheses. Any more opinions on the subject? --Ganteka Future 21:44, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

The part where you say "all targets" instead of "all creatures" for Sad Cry implies that you are choosing targets, I think. -4 to saves is nothing to scoff at for a swift action.

I wasn't confused by the plant type bit, but only because I didn't read it carefully enough; you should really say that it doesn't get the immunities it doesn't get.

It's only a full-round action to burrow when making a usable tunnel, you said. Get shot on the run and a bonus to speed of at least 5 feet, and suddenly you're pinging people to death while spending almost all your time with at least one foot of dirt protecting you.

"Only useful if you plan on being in melee" is a silly thing to say. Handing out minor SoDs like candy is probably at least an even trade for not getting +2 Dexterity, when building some sort of Rogue stabby type. --Foxwarrior 22:13, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

This is why I like it when people comment on my stuff. I'm often a goon. Anyways, I went and clarified and modified a few things. I think I actually had a discussion with Ghostwheel before on the "all targets/all creatures" thing on a different article, so yeah, I changed that. Also took off the lingering effect. I think I left the duration description a bit hazy. -4 on stuff at 15th level as a swift action is meant to be handy. It's meant to be a sort of reverse Inspire Courage as the bard ability, leading to mandragora on bard Battle of the Bands Countersong wail-offs. It does scale differently and I wonder about just having it be a straight -2 instead of scaling at all. Thoughts on this?

Clarified the plant traits thing just to be safe.

I'm a goon for reading the burrow thing wrong. Changed it so that it is a full-round action to burrow. Less abusable but still makes me worry. Should I worry or is it fine that a character can gear himself toward being a burrowing ambusher of sorts with use of feats and spells?

I stand by my "Only useful if you plan on being in melee" comment about Poisonous Bite. You even mention building a rogue stabby type afterwards. I was just getting at how for caster-type characters that it's less likely to see use when you're trying to stay away from melee (so you can cast easily). If you don't mind melee at all, man, start gnawing away at that orc, even if he's likely to not be around in 1 minute when he has to make that second save for his effective death. That said, I changed it from a "natural attack" into a "built in weapon". I hope it's clear. I suspect I may have missed something in my wording. Any suggestions for an effect more appropriate than "slow"?

Modified the Light Fortification (I find it to be clunky). Granted, my solution still is a bit clunky. I might just take it out entirely since it's not a big deal. --Ganteka Future 23:35, 17 May 2012 (UTC)