Talk:Sins of the Father (3.5e Spell)

Ratings

	MisterSinister is neutral on this article and rated it 2 of 4.
	While cool flavour-wise, for a 6th level spell, 2 permanent lost hit points per day is a bit anemic.

Perhaps, but the idea is to compel them to obey, not to debilitate the subject so as to prevent them from being able to do so. I'll grant you it's hardly the most appropriate spell in terms of combat efficacy. It's a story power, which I figured this domain could use. - TG Cid 20:19, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Even as a story power, the kind of targets you can expect it to have at CR11 would hardly be bothered by 2 points of perma-loss a day. I'd ramp that, or have it penalise stats, or something else - 2 hp is too few. - MisterSinister 21:01, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

It can kill basically anyone in less than a year, MisterSinister. --Foxwarrior 21:07, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I have yet to see a game last that long! In fact, according to the DMG's postulated rate of advancement, you can easily go from 1 to 20 in less time than that - at which point, you can just get it removed anyway. I don't see the argument's validity. - MisterSinister 22:45, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, this seems like it's supposed to be a version of geas for people who take the long view, possibly several generations. 2 hit points per day is enough that people affected by it must spend almost their entire lives following it. --Foxwarrior 04:58, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Way late to respond to this, but the hit point reduction has long since been changed to 1 per CR of the target. So for better or worse, it takes generally the same amount of time for any creature to be affected. I think in this case it's a good thing so the spell doesn't mow through generations of characters who die in a single day after being affected. - TG Cid 14:52, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Save

Does each new target get a save, or can I look for one of your level 1 commoner relatives, stack sins of the father on them a few times, and then kill them in order to transfer this effect to you? Also, highest CR blood relative, independent of relation might mean very little in a world where basically any two races can and possibly have interbred in the past. Does this mean you can sometimes get sins onto deities? --Foxwarrior 20:31, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

That's a rather embellished example, but I suppose it would be reasonable to allow each new subject a save. If you wanted to be a dick, though, you could say it's immediately upon acquiring the geas and not when it actually activates. Or twist the definition of capable to a point where you're still nowhere near strong enough to make the save. It's a tricky question, so I don't rightly know. - TG Cid 00:09, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

It should really prioritize by closeness of relation before CR, and I'd be perfectly fine with simply not allowing a save unless the new target is powerful, by some measure. I totally want to be a dick with the saves, since this spell really should be about forcing an entire family line to follow some arbitrary path you decided upon a thousand years ago, shouldn't it? Unfortunately, as it stands, this spell is more about abducting Hercules' great-grandchild, sticking a hundred sins on him, and then killing him on a day when Zeus forgot to prepare a curse removal spell. --Foxwarrior 04:58, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I'd drop the CR line entirely even, and have it affect children (and then their children, and their children, and so on) in descending order by age, and if there weren't any valid targets there move to siblings (and their children), and if there's no valid targets there move to cousins (and their children) and so on. The spell also revealing the relationship you had to the original bearer of the curse might also be a nice fluff addition. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 06:08, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Geas Comparison

Like the other geas like thing I looked at a bit ago, this one seems to have inherited from lesser geas rather than regular geas. The cast time and presence of a save specifically.

It's also somewhat weird that this is at the same level as geas, despite having a much greater plot reach. It also lacks the day / level for unreasonable demands exemption, so you can demand open ended things and wind up with generations of servants.

I don't know if it works well as a super geas at the same level as geas, but it might be ok as a modifier that you cast on a current geas of the "until discharged" variety. Dunno if that destroys the desired flow of the thing or not though. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 05:44, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

MisterSinister's releveled spells puts geas as a level 4 spell. Whether or not you agree with that sentiment, that's the governing reference for my spell selections and why this spell is a stated level 6. As for the other things that were shared in oath of blood, they should probably be more in line with geas/questand I will change them to do so. As for the day/level, the damage on this spell is such that this is probably not feasible as most characters would still die before that duration expires. As a result, I put in a clause that restores the hit point reduction if you follow orders (after all, the caster should want a capable subject as long as they are obedient, right?). Hopefully that doesn't have any weird ramifications other than perhaps making the spell easier to resist (since what constitutes following the task could be subjective, which is potentially troublesome); please point out any that exist. - TG Cid 15:04, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Was missing that reference, and the spell here makes a bit more sense (though I don't know if I agree or not). If you wanted to make it a bit harder to resist, you could have hit points recover at 1 per day of following orders. That makes the down time for not following worse than the time taken, and makes trying to work against the orders every day or so much harder to pull off by anyone with actual levels. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 16:41, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

If you missed the healing clause before, that's because I only just put it in. I like the only restoring 1 hp per day spent following orders, so I have not done that. - TG Cid 20:19, 13 September 2012 (UTC)