Talk:Clockwork Knight (3.5e Class)

Ratings

Hammerhead is neutral on this article and rated it 2 of 4.

Let's just say, first of all, that I really wanted to Like or even Favor this article, because I really like the class, and, reading it, I got all these cool mental images of exciting cinematic scenes I'd use with a Clockwork character. However, looking through the mechanics, a few things irked me, but, really, the reason I am neutral, is because of the high AC bonus. Now, this class is a lot better than your Biotech class, primarily due to it's point system making things more fair. However, your AC bonus here is still way too high, especially when you consider that your Dex bonus increases alongside your armor. Biotech is just silly, as it receives it's full level plus an additional 4 to it's AC, even before enhancement or Dex bonus. In the case of this class, let's suppose we're level 8, in which case the Clockwork gets +7 armor, +2 enhancement, and +1 Dex. +10 from a single class feature is not as bad as +12, in the case of the Biotech at the same level, and it's good that this is spread out across multiple types of bonuses, but it's still too high for comfort, in my opinion. I might suggest increasing the AC every 3 or 4 levels instead of every 2. There were a few smaller things you could improve as well, of course, but they are primarily just my preferences. For example, Information Unit seems weak next to the other three combat styles. Also, the Tools are a bit too repetitive, in that most of what they do is deal damage in different areas of effect. Also, force scatter not allowing a save is a bit of an issue. That, and the Option augmentation. There have been a lot of games I've played where a magic missile or two won the game for us, and it's a favorite spell of mine to put it into a wand, so, seeing it given out so often and cheaply, well, that just gets on my nerves.

I can't get no...

Satisfaction. This is an attempt to make a different take on the Autoplate Pilot concept. However, I feel dissatisfied and I'm not entirely sure why. Opinions? -- Eiji-kun 08:30, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I haven't finished reading the whole class, but this stood out and is worth mentioning. The anima mechanics look extremely boring. You can't use more anima points in a round than your level, and you automatically recover points equal to your class level each round. So for single classed characters you never actually get to use your pool since you just recover up to what you could have spent at the end of the round. Multi-classed characters might dip into it slightly if you mean character level instead of class level in the spending section (boo unclear), or they might not. Even if they do though, it's a very small difference that isn't likely to matter unless you have lots more non-clockwork knight levels.

So the resource management here doesn't actually work. And I find that pretty unsatisfying. You might get more out of it by letting them spend up to class level per rune per round, or just twice class level per round (with upgrades in limit as class features later). I don't know if changing the limits would require adjustments of the rune abilities. You could also cut the recharge rate or make recharging take an action. - Tarkisflux 19:24, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Recharging taking an action sounds pretty good, but what amount of points recharged should I do? -- Eiji-kun 21:11, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Maybe your int mod, max up to your class levels? --Leziad 21:16, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I think full recharge with 5 full-round actions, or half level as swift (max int mod) is pretty reasonable, but I'm not honestly sure it's going to matter most during combat. You start off being able to use max anima for 3 rounds before you're out, and that grows as you level. By level 20 you can use it for 12 rounds before you're out. As you're aiming for wizard level with the class, those numbers should be enough to finish / decide a fight without recharging at all. You could make it an out-of-combat, hourly, or even daily recharge and it wouldn't affect combat much, since recharge in combat already looks somewhat unnecessary and unlikely. Recharging or holding back is only really useful for workday management or in weird attrition / really long fight cases. - Tarkisflux 22:52, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I could do 1 point a round, which is generally too slow to recover in combat but strong over the course of out-of-combat, or do it as an by/encounter basis. I did expect some will have points locked away in permenant things, so 12 max rounds isn't entirely accurate, but I get your point. The alternative: I lower the amount of points available. I am aiming for low wizard, well really rogue but I figured by the nature of the class it would end up being wizard anyway. -- Eiji-kun 23:04, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Did not know you could permanently lock it. I should probably read the rest of the class at this point so any further suggestions are actually useful :-p - Tarkisflux 00:45, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

In that case I just made some edits, adding a lot more runes (finally remembered what I was gonna use) and changing the recharge to an action. On balance concerns I always worried that the Spell Rune was obviously the most useful, though tempers that you can only reach 6th level spells before epic so it's not quite so uber. It does simply a lot of the process though so I only need one example of a blasty beam, and magic has enough variations for the rest.

Yeah, you can lock away points. I think what bugged me is the wording, but I did want to conceal that this is basically the same concept as I did with the gate knight. Some of these 'maneuvers' are quasi-stances which take anima to activate but last forever until you release the energy again. -- Eiji-kun 01:02, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Hey there IP 98.21.99.253

Tis rude to change mechanics on a page without first consulting the Talk page. I saw you changed the +2 armor to +4. I haven't changed it back yet, since it's a pretty minor change and may still work, but you should make note of it here before you change things. Just a friendly FYI, and an alert that I may revert it later. Feel free to justify your decision in the meantime. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 03:12, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry about that, Mr. Eiji-kun. I merely intended to keep a bit of uniformity within the article. I believe it to be good, and i like some of your work. Mainly only based off the Autoplate Pilot and this article, but then again i am a mechanical guy, i like machines and magic, and pairing the two is awesome to me. Just as a note.Kylem2013 (talk) 18:42, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

By the way, Eiji, Kylem2013 didn't actually change anything, they just modified some reminder text to be consistent with the statement where the +4 armor bonus is originally granted. --Foxwarrior (talk) 07:44, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Was it that way? Well then I feel bad, I thought the class had it listed at +2 and he was buffing it to +4. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 08:02, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Oh, i noticed something new. The X-blaster rune has no damage type listed - Kylem2013 (talk) 05:03, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Intentional. Like an eldritch blast, it is typeless. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 06:43, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Shouldnt you mention it is typeless then? - Kylem2013 (talk) 11:37, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Nah. The nature of unmentioned damage is typeless damage, that seems to be the modus operandi for how its written. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 12:09, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

If you say so man - Kylem2013 (talk) 13:44, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Errors?

Hi i just noticed that there were a few possible errors on the page, thought i should point them out for fixing or editing, if they are just worded oddly.

The first error was to do with damage reduction, it states that 1 point gets you DR\Magic and 2 gets you DR\Magic AND Adamantine which is a bit odd because unless i'm totally reading that wrong, doesn't that mean that it gets weaker?

The second error looks more like a typo, the spell resistance rune starts with 11 for 1 point then goes to a 1:1 ratio. Did you mean for the first point to give a major boost because that's not consistent with the rest of the page. Anyway i just threw this in because the difference was bugging me that's all.

Now that thats done i did have a complaint/idea about the combat styles, basically i think the "ranged" version is a bit weak. Could you add a bit of fluff or maybe an ability to do with vision? To match up with the other styles i really think it needs some sort of vision enhancement, like telescopic vision/heat vision ect. It doesn't need an all around visual ability like the information unit, but any sniper would be able to see further than the normal units. Cheers for making such an awesome page anyway, hope this helps.

Sup!

Going from DR/magic to DR/magic and adamantine isn't a typo, nor getting weaker. It means you need both a magic and an adamantine weapon to breach, so a magic non-adamantine weapon or a mundane adamantine weapon won't cut it. Were you thinking of DR/magic OR adamantine? That is weaker, since either works and not needing both.

The SR is correct as well, SR 11 is baseline. At 1st level, your SR should be roughly 10 + your HD, much like how your AC starts at 10 rather than 0.

As far as the ranged version, sure, I'll give it a look over and see what I can do. Thanks for the input. You can sign your posts by typing ~~~~ at the end. Ciao! -- Eiji-kun (talk) 19:45, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh right, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation

Some Ideas

I know this class is pretty old and established, but I started playing one and I have opinions. I think the class felt dissatisfying when completed because some abilities come on too late to feel meaningful (Combat Styles), and some things seem a bit unregulated (Spell Runes).

I'll start on Spell Runes because when making the character I did concur that these are far and away the strongest Power Runes and it's hard to not just spend them all on Spells. Since a Clockwork Knight can refill Anima as a standard action quickly, they are pretty much at-will abilities with no limit. I recommend changing them into a 3/day SLA, and making it a Modification rather than a Tool. As a corollary I would change Modifications so that it subtracts certain amount of Anima permanently, as if it was forever tapped. That would alter other Power Runes, so you'd have to determine fair costs (or I may return to this discussion if interested and write up some suggested costs).

The spell runes if nerfed in this way should probably be set on a different schedule, say start with cantrip at will and then 2 levels higher as next spell level, and then every 4 levels step up progression-

Spell Rune Progression

Class Level	Spell Level
1st	Cantrip
3rd	1st
7th	2nd
11th	3rd
15th	4th
19th	5th

This would help with fix the mess caused by having even level access for spells on an ability that grants them on odd levels. Pretty much nobody will ever pick a level 2 spell because you don't get it until level 6, which means level 7, but you get Large then, and at level 9 you'd rather pick a level 3 spell.

It's hard to justify Gravity Suit Augmentation when instead you could have it as an at will SLA, so this slower progression might make the Modification more desirable. Gravity Suit could become a Modification with a lower, but permanent, cost.

Graft Weapon has more potential if you can use it on the ranged attack Power Rune Tool weapons (Laser, X-Blaster). Let it turn them into (Su) weapons and able to apply ranged weapon feats or enhancements like Far Shot to extend range. It is tempting to let it turn them into proper manufactured weapons which can be fired like a crossbow, but that may need a more careful rewrite to keep people from going nova and firing off many blasts in one round.

I feel like Clockwork Armor should count as whatever class of armor would be most advantageous to the wearer (light, medium heavy). This mostly comes up because Pathfinder and presumably other sources only allow certain enhancements for certain armor types. It's such a minor benefit that most DMs would probably grant it anyway.

Another minor tweak that may help is to simplify Crafter and Imbue Item. It'd probably be simpler to just grant the crafting feats (Craft Golem replaces Crafter, Craft Arms & Armor replaces Imbue Item), and leave it to the character to sort out how they cast the spells.

Combat Styles just come too late to be meaningful. You could straight up give them 4 levels earlier and that would not be out of line. They are too minor to be a capstone ability and you already have a capstone anyway. The problem is that you are going to acquire the good abilities earlier through some other means and then they're useless by the time you em. It seems like the 8th level track is equivalent to 2nd-3rd level spells (see invis, uncanny dodge, spider climb, slower fly), and 14th level track to 3rd-5th level spells (haste, better fly, true seeing). It's just way too late, especially considering spell runes could replicate these abilities much sooner. Have Combat Style at 2nd, 4th, 10th, 16th, and you don't need to change anything else about it. -- ErikOfWiki (talk), 31 December 2022