Talk:Draconiel (3.5e Race)

Ratings

	Geodude671 opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	For the reasons already stated

	Ghostwheel opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	Eiji said all the right things. This is way too strong when compared with the baseline of... well, virtually all the other classes and races.

	AuraTwilight opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	Not only is this unplayable trash, but if its not open to criticism and revision, it has no place on a wiki. This isn't just free hosting space.

	Surgo opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	Completely agreed with Eiji. This is completely unplayable.

	Metalas favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	This looks like a fun and interesting race to play as or use as a key NPC for a Story I’m writing! Tho I know some people will see it and claim it is “Overpowered” I think this creator did a greatt job of making it a Fun and Playable race. The amount of detail of the Draconiel was well written and thought out as well, I hope to see more from this Elder guy in the near future.

	Eiji-kun opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	Right, so I believe the spiel below speaks for itself for my rating. This isn't functional, and it's a finished product now.

Live Reaction Time

Time to do my live reactions and write it down as I go along. First thing that strikes me is that this is pretty wordy. At least it is going towards all descriptions so its relevent. Anyway, they look to be some kind of Aasimar Dragonborn things and that's a cool idea. They got weird body vents, must be like Majin Buu or something. Also weird halos; I get what you mean in that they have a classic angel halo and a stylized backdrop art halo, though you know those are just two ways of describing the same thing right? Ah well, if Bayonetta angels can have multiple halos, why not.

Speaking of which most angels, at least in D&D, seem to be halo-less. Being nitpicky.

Good aligned usually, makes sense. Let's get to the mechanics!

I see off the bat these things are LA 0 and RHD 4 for an ECL of 4, so I'll be judging it in comparison to a level 4 character with PC levels. RHD is stronger than LA so you get less leeway as far as raw power you can get, but the ability scores presented could work. They are up there for sure, but let's go on.

Dragon (Angel) is abnormal typing, but you could get away with it. There is a big problem though: the Angel Subtype comes with a shit ton of immunities and abilities. Immunity to acid, cold, petrification, electric resist 10, fire resist 10, constant magic circle against evil (and thus defacto immunity to charms and compulsions), AND complete immunity to spells 3rd level or lower via lesser globe of invulnerability. That's crazy broken! You do NOT want the angel subtype. Just say they have the Good Subtype and they count as an angel for the purposes of race or something. It's so bad, I almost think this was unintentional.

Darkvision, Low-Light, that's ok. 40 ft move, that's fine. 60 ft fly (good) is really good at 4th level, but flight does start becoming a thing around 5th. Still, I do not recommend it. If you do give them flight, you should scale it like the Raptorians or Dragonborn do. Wizards and their spells are basically the benchmark of very high level play, so if you're outpacing the wizard you should give yourself pause before you grant them that. Consider revising that.

Perfect Genetic Superiority is weird. Besides the wording ("a DNA sequence that is powerful on a molecular level"... what does that mean, they are resistant to UV rays? Their DNA is dangerously reactive? They are actually made of lithium batteries?), it brings up a funny and disturbing image of them diddling sheeps and forming vast army of sheep-born draconiel. They would destroy the ecosystem they are placed in as their genes would only grow expodentially stronger rather than mixing with the gene pool. This feature isn't broken (it's mostly fluff really and probably should be placed outside of the mechanics area), but it's just weird and maybe setting breaking.

Four natural weapons is pretty badass. That means 4 attacks at a level where BAB is offering only 1. It's not uncommon to have several attacks at low level, but this is pretty strong. I am getting the impression that this is a large pile of very strong things that could be fine stand-alone, and are excessive all together. ...and given the length of this race's mechanics, I fear I may be right.

They have monstrous cost for armor, which is fine. Oddly enough it's x3 instead of x2, which doesn't make that much sense and makes me wonder why it's the vents that do this rather than the wings or tail which usually is the source for humanoid shaped but monstrous cost armor. That said, it's not so much of a nerf or a penalty when they get the rather strong Scaling Masterwork Body feat, making this downside more of an upside, and just pidgeonholing you into playing armor-light classes.

Proficiencies are nice, but do they really need it after all this?

The breath weapon too, makes sense stand-alone but is joining a large pile of powers. It's got an abnormal cooldown, most are 1d4. Making it 1d6 is mostly a meaningless nerf. The damage doesn't seem to have a type, is it just some kind of typeless energy? That's fine, but also another buff to add to the pile. It's implied that its an energy type associated with your scale color, but what is to stop me from being one of the weird rare types that breath sonic or negative energy or angry Canadians?

...and then I... wait, what?

A bonus feat every 5 levels???

Are we a class or a race? The human bonus feat is a massive boon that makes it the right choice to pick in 90% of your situations. It's super great, people jump at the chance to get more feats. And it gets not just one in addition to the pile, but FIVE over its lifetime? Hooooooly crap noooooooooooo!

Let's... let's move on. That one doesn't need to be there.

Ok, so this thing about Perfect Hybrid is weird. You don't actually need it there since you're already fusing the abilities via the Angel subtype (which I do not recommend) and you're not actually taking the ability scores or other abilities from any specific celestial. Also it seems to imply that you maybe gain LA 1, but I don't think that is your intent. Basically this particular feature confuses more than it helps.

2 skill points/level is unnessicary. This is like my complaint about the bonus feats and its relevence to humans, just slightly less because its skill points. Skill points which they don't actually need given the whopping 8+Int skills and +4 Int from racial HD and ability scores.

+4 natural armor, fine on its own, but needlessly adding to an immense MOUNTAIN of abilities.

Immortal is fine.

Dragon have the best HD, they are basically barbarians without rage which is still pretty good. If I compared what we have so far to a level 4 barbarian... well, do I need to make the comparison? Can you see how this doesn't relate on any scale?

"A Draconiel may have any and all damage they deal have the Holy descriptor. They can activate this or suppress it at will." Holy doesn't exist, you may mean the Good descriptor. Which if they had the Good subtype is already assumed.

Oh lord they get a domain too. Call this a free feat and add it to the pile.

Fast healing too? Oh god what!? No! Nooo! To the pile!!!!

Frightful presence is super good, might work on its very own but.... PILE!

Spell resistance!? So you're immune to all spells that would hit you at level 4, and then highly resistant after! PILE!!!!

We're almost done though, and we have plenty we could cut out that isn't needed. What's next?

And then, time stopped.

....Dragonic/Angelic Ascension.

At 10 HD and above, for an hour/level (so, all day) you just become a True Dragon of presumably whatever type you picked, so all those people who picked Red and Gold Dragons have a huge advantage over everyone else. I have no idea what happens to your body, items, or abilities but it looks like you just bloat up to the size, gain all the powers, and the implicet Awesome subtype who dragons, famed destroyers of parties, have. AND THEN at level 15 you just become a CR 23 creature for all day instead with full cleric casting!!! You haven't even picked you class yet, and you are raining molten cheese all over the optimized CoDzillas that the DM rejected for being broken.

After that insanity, Mana-jet Ignition almost seems quant in its ability to just buff your already superior speed. To. The. Pile.

Aural Halo too is just... wow. It's strange that after all of this, we finally talk about the halo and learn its actually a physical object. In fact, it's a free enchanted exotic weapon they are all just born with. Hope they don't have live births, or otherwise enjoy the 100% fatality rate in childbirth.

Tongues is nothing compared to this.

I want to help, but I can't even begin to know where to start. This is far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far too much! Figure out what you want in the "Aasimar Dragonborn" archtype you're going for, and then try to compare it to a level 4 class of your choice. If you are exceeding them, you've failed and need to revamp. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 23:02, 18 March 2018 (MDT)

(EDIT) Please don't blank talk pages. They're for article discussion. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 01:23, 19 March 2018

Don't want. Didn't need, Didn't ask for help. I made something cool based on a race from a book I am writing cause friends thought it would be cool to play. Don't like it? not my problem. Primordial Elder Dragon (talk) 03:04, 19 March 2018 (MDT)

Huh. Well, I thought I was being helpful. Very well, I won't offer any more help, but you should be aware we do rate articles here so...

Sounds like you're done and this is the finish product, I will rate it as I'm sure others will in due time. Sorry to hear. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 05:22, 19 March 2018 (MDT)

(EDIT) Actually I've just been reminded; if your intent is to just host content but input and usability by the public isn't wanted, then it goes in a sandbox. I can help you move it there if you want. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 05:24, 19 March 2018 (MDT)

I am not going to act like I care. Yall can do as you wish. Primordial Elder Dragon (talk) 05:29, 19 March 2018 (MDT)

Again. Don't care. Primordial Elder Dragon (talk) 05:29, 19 March 2018 (MDT)

I don't care for input. And people can use it as they see fit....Or not. It's their choice. DM's can allow it into their games or not. People have a right to what they want and if they want cool shit, they can have it. If they think it's too much? Well it isn't for them and that is for them to decide. NOT. YOU. Deuces, babe ~ <3 I'm gunna go back to having fun and making cool shit regardless. Not everyone is going to conform to what you think is right or fair and I don't think what I made is that bad in comparison to some of the stuff here. Primordial Elder Dragon (talk) 05:29, 19 March 2018 (MDT)

...soooo, is that a yes to sandbox? No? -- Eiji-kun (talk) 05:58, 19 March 2018 (MDT)

What do you think?........That would be a big, fat, Tarrasque-Sized = NO. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean the community will follow suit with you. Primordial Elder Dragon (talk) 06:01, 19 March 2018 (MDT)

Ok, cool. Glad we could get that clear. Good luck on that... edge. Hope it works out for you. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 06:05, 19 March 2018 (MDT)

I'm going to warn you ahead of time against trying to brigade on this site, Primordial Elder Dragon. Having people suddenly show up and register just to rate this article is rather suspicious. Surgo (talk) 08:34, 19 March 2018 (MDT)

I just woke up....so you can take your accusation and do something else with it cause I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Just because one person liked it doesn't mean I am summoning a legion of people to come here to bugger it down. Besides it's not like it's going to matter in the end anyways. Ya'll are just gunna dislike it into the ground and 90% of the common folk people who read it are never going to honest take the time to rate it and you know that just as much as I do cause human beings are LAZY. -_- So...whatever man. I'm gunna go have coffee Primordial Elder Dragon (talk) 12:12, 19 March 2018 (MDT)

Can you stop antagonizing other users please? This is a community site where a lot of volunteers attempt to keep order, not a free material hosting company with no question asked. If you are going to make something and stay by it no matter what, the least you can do is being polite. --Leziad (talk) 12:18, 19 March 2018 (MDT)

Just because one person liked it doesn't mean I am summoning a legion of people to come here to bugger it down.

You are not fooling anyone. When someone shows up echoing your words as their only contribution to the site, it's obviously brigading. This is the only warning I will provide you. Surgo (talk) 13:27, 19 March 2018 (MDT)

Suggestion

Do all Draconiels need all these abilities? Even the least of them can fire super powerful laser and turn into dragons? You should probably offload some of these abilities on a racial paragon class, so you can have your laser-spamming dragon-person thing (the physical description section left me of only a vague impression of what they look like). Because a dragon-aasimar thing is totally a thing that could work. --Leziad (talk) 11:36, 19 March 2018 (MDT)

Really it looks to me like he wants to make a monster, not a race. Surgo (talk) 17:33, 19 March 2018 (MDT)

You people need to pleas Chill out

Yea I just made this account, I’m new to D&D and I came here to look for fun looking Races. I don’t like how y’all are jumping on one another over somthing to small. Common guys can we all just get along and have fun and not jump to silly conclusions? Y’all shouldn’t just jump on a person for having a different opinion on the matter.

“I honestly don’t know how to work the whole edit and talk thing on the wiki I kinda jumped in because I have strong feelings against these sorts of things”

The issue isn't that he has a differing opinion, it's because he's being extremely, intolerably rude to people who were just trying to give him constructive criticism. And, mind you, the entire point of this wiki is to critique and improve D&D homebrew, not just showcase it. If that's not something he wants to receive, he's literally on the wrong website. --68.115.21.14 15:29, 19 March 2018 (MDT)

I totally understand that, but to me it looked like he was just getting his idea made fun of and just belittled. The guy who made the suggestion topic at least write how improve it rather than just writing a huge paragraph on how crappy it was and how much it wasn’t even worth playing(mind you he had good points). The part that really off out me was the small spam of the word “far” for three lines. It was in my opinion unprofessional for an Admin and makes it look like they are just adding on to the insult of a the person’s time and effort to create this race. This is probably why Elder was defensive about the whole thing and you can’t really blame the guy/gal.

And I’m kinda getting defensive since I literally just joined and I’m already in unwanted drama for giving my opinion on a race I thought was cool in my mind. So after this whole thing is clear I’d like to just keep my nose clean for the rest of my time on this site.

If what you say is true there not gonna be any trouble regardless. In any case the article will keep getting downrated unless some change is made, or until the author is at least willing to discuss the situation without acting up. --Leziad (talk) 16:18, 19 March 2018 (MDT)

He might after everything is cooled down, I really do want to see this as a playable race. Everyone needs to just respect each other and yes Critisism is great and it helps improve a creator’s works. But it becomes a point where it becomes bashing and mockery.

Sup, Eiji here. I thought I had been fairly kind in my review, but YMMV. I am actually quite honest with what I wrote though, I did want to help him. I offered this bit of advice: "Figure out what you want in the "Aasimar Dragonborn" archtype you're going for, and then try to compare it to a level 4 class of your choice. If you are exceeding them, you've failed and need to revamp." since I can't tell exactly if he is insistent on making it this strong (at which case I would suggest making them a monster, or dramatically raising the ECL), or if he wanted to aim for his current ECL 4 he posted.

Can't say I'm a fan of his attitude. Really playing up to the stereotype there, but what can you do.

Anyway, I just wanted to repeat that italicized line. If you take anything away from my review or comments, please take that. It should help you. And if he really just wants to host it but avoid public scrutiny I do suggest using a sandbox. It just means its set to private basically and he can share the link to it as he sees fit. Nothing illegitimate about that. Hope that helps.

Oh and as an FYI, you can sign your name at the end with four tilde marks, like ~~~~. Useful! -- Eiji-kun (talk) 17:09, 19 March 2018 (MDT)

Final

I have made many changes. Gotten rid of things. Changed things. Added a little. But this is a far as I am willing to bend. I made this race of people a long time ago in my story and simply wanted to play them and share it with my friends. Maybe even let the public see it and play if they wanted to. My idea and attitude is if they like it, they like it. If they don't, they don't. But being calmer now I know where my mind is at. I got rid of a lot...clarified a lot and nerfed some things but this is a close as I can keep them to what they really are and I'm sorry if you don't agree with what is left but I can't budge anymore. I raised the LA and ECL and that's probably the only thing I will change if you want further, but after this and other than that I'm done. I'm not changing anymore. I would say I am sorry for being angry but in the spirit of honesty, I am not. I simply am not. You are free to dislike me, dislike it, vote it into sandbox oblivion for all I can tell just...I'm done. I'm going to sit down. Make one of my dragonic angels people with my friends and just do what D&D is meant to be. And that's the last I have to say of it for good. Good day to you all. Primordial Elder Dragon (talk) 18:20, 19 March 2018 (MDT)