User talk:Luigifan18/Mogeko (3.5e Race)

Discussion

I've been following this issue for some time. I feel I should really inform you that there are still quite a few problems with this. The first, and primary one, I feel I should address is your link in the relationships section. This is in no way shape or form, subtle. It is blatant and obvious, it just doesn't use the exact words. For example, if you were to link to a pornographic video with a black bar over the genitalia. It is still pornography. People will understand it and treat it as such, despite it not technically being shown. I did notice your conversation were you spoke about the qualities of the Mogeko that do not have to do with their main shtick. That is what you need. You need to ignore the sexual aspect completely. For example, look at the Succubus entry in 3.5. A succubus is a being that sleeps with men to steal their souls. You will see nothing about sex in this entry. The nearest it gets is kissing. --Novaform (talk) 03:46, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

(Watches it return to mainspace, and puts on his DM face.) "Are you suuuure?" You may want to keep working on it, the hungry Eijis lie at the gates ready to rip and tear anew.

Also stress bump to Nova's comment about looking at the succubus. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 13:52, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I took out the sexual references. Is there something I missed? --Luigifan18 (talk) 14:06, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Other than an early mention of them enjoying regular wanks, nothing I can see. LenKagetsu (talk) 14:14, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't sound as though these creatures could go on adventures in general for a whole ton of different reasons if just their flavor is any indication. Why is this a PC race instead of a monster? That would fit SO much better. --Ghostwheel (talk) 15:41, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm operating under the assumption that a Mogeko PC has already broken away from the pseudo-hive mind, so a lot of the flavor may or may not apply to it in the first place. --Luigifan18 (talk) 16:33, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

If this is the case, then you should redo the current flavor and take it more in that direction. "While most [race] are [xyz], those who become adventures are [abc]," and then expand on [abc] since the rest isn't particularly relevant to player characters. --Ghostwheel (talk) 16:38, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

What Ghost said x1000. It will require more than a footnote, it's actually an entire shift in direction of focus.

Of course... none of that will save you. Fortunately for you I have a few things I want to do before I get back to this. But... it... is.... coming.....

Dusk of the Last Day. Only a few articles remain before the Elder Evil Eiji is reborn to bring dread judgement to you. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 23:59, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Er, what else am I supposed to say, other than that adventuring Mogekos (often) consider the antics of the larger Mogeko population to be an embarrassment? --Luigifan18 (talk) 00:14, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

I see a bit of an issue with your premise. You are making a race intended to only be played as an aberrant of their society. I've seen the examples of Kobolds and Goblins used. I quite enjoy playing Kobolds. It is very interesting how they function in a player party, even as an ideal example of their race. They are very Socialistic. They do what they can for the group of which they are a part. Goblins are selfish. That makes their motivation easy. Gold. This can lead them into a party without trouble even without being an aberrant of their kind. Mogeko, on the other hand, at least as depicted here, have a bit of an issue with that regard. They have little motivation for joining an adventuring party without being an aberrant, at least in most cases.

You also seem to have not headed my first message. You did remove one link, but one of your other links are to, what appears to be, the playlist of which that other link was part. Other than that, you have not removed anything relating to the sexual premises of this race. Once more, I shall emphasize that a race whose entire premise is turning mortals to their unrestricted sexual desires, was made without any mention of sex whatsoever. I am sure that this race can be made with such guidelines.

I also question the reason why you gave it a racial trait that gives it an immunity to a single item. Especially when the item in question is unlikely to ever be seen in a campaign. There is also the issue that this trait, called "Pervy", has little to do with most of the effects of this item. How does being Pervy prevent the alteration of their... Intimates? How does it disallow them the belief of the opposite gender being weaker? How does it stop them from "Liking the End?" How about saving against the sheer monotony of stupid rules in FATAL; it might save them from the untoward aspects, but what about the sheer absurd rolling? What does being Pervy have to do with resisting Microcosm? There are many parts of this item that the race should have little ability to resist, and even if they did have reason, I don't see the need to give them an immunity to a single item. --Novaform (talk) 03:57, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

I made this a while ago, some parallels can be drawn with the Mogeko in that they are both perverted little creatures, yet no one raised a stink about mine. It's all about you handle the subject… do pyggas masturbate? Probably, I don't like thinking about it too much. Now most of the offending has been removed, so that's good. But there is a bit of matter only some have touched about: The crunch. Why do they have a racial trait that make them immune to a joke minor artifact? Why is their religion a racial trait? Why +4 Wisdom, from how they are described they should have a penalty. Why do they have super scent? Why is every single one of them capable of kidnapping? Are you sure that's a racial trait and not an artifact or trait of their homeplane? I only briefly slogged through the TV tropes, so my grasp on the source content is poor. --Leziad (talk) 06:02, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

(The sign of the Elder Evil Eiji has become overwhelming. You feel your article crawling on your back. Death is coming very soon.) -- Eiji-kun (talk) 06:48, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

The Codex Eijites approves of this Exterminatus

"Nuclear launch detected."

As promise, once returned here, I would bring my wrath upon it with holy prometheum and the rage of the gods. Though I am good, I shall not be merciful. Remember that I want to help you... but I will not be merciful.

So for an article supposedly devoid of obscene materials, I sure am seeing a bunch of them. As others have pointed out, the half hearted "fixing" of the link by going from a perverse scene to merely the playlist with the perverse scene. The fact that their entire shallow of existence has "masturbation" as a major highlight of their race. I blame the source material and you alike. The source material for being shitty moogles. And you for not finding a better way about this. The succubus, the pygga, these are the things you should ape. But, I will return to this in due time. Because this isn't really about the fluff anymore. Or at least I don't need to handle it, others have already repeated (several times) their grievances. If you remember with the original talk page, I said that there were so many towering monuments to insanity being erected I couldn't even get to the mechanics. Oh those mechanics, where to start?

• +2 Dexterity, −2 Constitution, −4 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom. Oh ECL 1 and yet +4 bonuses. Always a recipe for disaster, we come with a bad start. +4/-4 is not balanced, no more than +20/-20 is. +4 is far more valuable than any -4 due to the way ability scores work, and given the race fluff, Wisdom seems to be the LAST thing these guys possess. "But they are trackers of muh lolis!" you cry. Then give them bonuses to tracking. Wisdom is a lot more than having keen senses, it's also wisdom and insight, things these shitty ripoffs clearly lack if their fluff has any merit. Recommendation: Kill the +4, make a +2, and reconsider if they are wise at all in the first place.

• Monstrous Humanoid (Anthro, Cat, Extraplanar). Minor nitpick. Good that you have extraplanar, and anthro is a homebrew subtype so that's fine, but why cat? There isn't exactly a cat subtype, and it's way too broad to be just them (their catness is covered by the anthro subtype), so it's pretty pointless. As an aside, I find them more likely to be evil outsiders or fey, given what they are. Utterly reprehensible, living on another plane, prone to kidnapping. It's very fey, and not very monstrous humanoid. Recommendation: Either make it "Megeko" for the specificness of it (which is IMHO pointless but at least doesn't bring up questions) or ditch entirely, anthro covers your needs.

• Mogeko base land speed is 25 feet. More annoying than anything, 25 ft is really annoying to deal with, especially considering things like speed reductions with armor. Given that they are slower than humans, 20 ft should do. The "chase scenes" in the videos showed nothing really unusual. If anything, it shows they possess endurance for the long distance running to chase. Recommendation: Drop to 20 ft. Add Endurance if you really must.

• Racial Skills: Mogekos have a +4 racial bonus to Listen and Spot checks, as well as a +2 racial bonus to Search checks; hiding from a Mogeko is damn-near impossible. They also have a +12 racial bonus to Scent checks by virtue of having the scent special quality (see below). However, they take a −2 racial penalty to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks, as they're too stupid to lie effectively, too small and cute-looking to be taken seriously when they try to threaten someone, and nobody likes them due to their lustful tendencies. Actually, this is (almost) fine, though the fluff is really unnecessary. I don't think very much of a Scent skill (an argument for another day) but the modus operandi concerning having (ability) and interacting with skills related to it is +8. Notice +8 Swim checks for beings with a Swim checks, +8 Climb checks for climb speed. Ergo, +8 for Scent.

• Scent (Ex): Mogekos have a keen sense of smell, and can sniff out their prey with ease. They innately have the Scent special quality. They can detect a creature up to 60 feet away by smell (120 feet upwind, 30 feet downwind), and pinpoint a scent within 20 feet. From the videos I have seen, I haven't really seen them with Scent, nevermind having super scent. Double range and a huge pinpoint range (normally 5 ft) and this really becomes blindsense 30 ft plus double range scent. Again, from the source materials, unless the heroine had Darkstalker there were scenes with them being very close yet clearly out of their senses. Recommendation: Are you certain they have Scent period? Even if they do, consider the strength of blindsense 30 ft and double range scent.

• Abduction (Sp): Once per year, a Mogeko can use gate, as the spell, to drag a creature from another plane to the Mogeko Plane (or whatever plane the Mogeko happens to be on). This ability only works on a creature that is currently sleeping (or in a sleep-equivalent state) and on some sort of currently-moving transport (such as a ship or carriage). A Mogeko can only choose a creature to abduct if it is currently scrying on the creature in question; otherwise, it abducts a random creature. When the subject wakes up, it is suddenly on the same plane as the Mogeko (though it might be on an illusionary copy of the transport, at the Mogeko's option). The subject generally winds up 1d10 miles away from the Mogeko who called it, in a random direction. The Mogeko has no control over the creature(s) it calls, but the called creature(s) are granted no special ability to return to their own plane; they must find a way home on their own. The Mogeko does not pay any XP cost for using this ability. The creature to be abducted is entitled to a Will save to avoid being dragged through the portal, and gets a +4 bonus on its saving throw if its CR is at least 2 more than abduction's caster level. If the would-be victim outright outclasses the Mogeko, abducting it will likely be next to impossible (if not actually impossible); if the victim's CR is at least 4 more than abduction's caster level, it gets a +8 bonus, and if its CR is at least 6 more than abduction's caster level, it can't be abducted at all. Even though a sleeping creature is usually considered to be willing to be subjected to an effect, Abduction is an exception to this rule; the victim is automatically considered unwilling. The caster level is equal to the Mogeko's character level, and the spell level is equal to ½ the Mogeko's character level, rounded down (minimum 1st, maximum 9th). The save DC is 10 + spell level + the Mogeko's Charisma modifier.

Ah, we have arrived. The glorious tower of rot atop a broken throne! Gate. Gaaaate. Yeah, altered gate, but gaaaaaaaate! There are many things wrong here. There are many things which much be erased.

First thing is, I think it's a bad implementation of the source material period. Nothing, nothing I can see anywhere, seems to suggest this is some universal racial trait megekos possess. Everything points it out to being something either rare, unique, or at least non-racial. It is a McGuffian, it is the catalyst for the plot of this game that someone is ported over into their realm of rape. Think about how it would break the game by itself. The heroine runs away, and they wait a few hours for her to inevitably get sleepy and rest (a sitting target for these supposed expert trackers) or she's moving while resting on a transport and they just port her back into rape range with any one of their NI megeko buddies (because of course there are many, they swarm). Think about how it changes the D&D setting they are placed in, where a gaggle of level 1 megekos (who are clearly working together in mass as per their description) can decide to port in the King of Importantland into whatever plane they are on, both abducting them in the first place and bringing them to possibly certain doom if they happen to be chilling on the Negative Energy Plane, in Baator, or even in any normal terrain which has 10 miles of hazards. The ocean says hello! You've added a save, but it's done nothing for the assassination quality of this ability. It just means they get a save, so you might need to use a few more megeko mooks before you can start world war 3 by kidnapping/killing the political keystone of your world. Remember to that importance =/= CR, so a CR limit just keeps you from killing Tiamat with this ability, you can still pluck anything from CR 7 down at level 1 by spamming this.

Of course, as a 1/year ability, it's somehow both grossly overpowered AND completely pointless. It is a non-ability! I could make a race of McMoogles who can shit antimatter 1/lifetime, which would be incredibly stupid and yet also very pointless as a race trait as you will never use it. And as a PC, you will never use it, or you will use it for things PCs do. You think you're gonna waste it away on the chance to chase after some pedobait? No, you're a goddamn PC, you're gonna use it to solve the point of the campaign! Turns out you DIDN'T need to save the princess from the dragon, she's in 10 miles! What's that about an evil orc warlord? A trip to hell and some naptime should solve that problem.

And again, for what? Because the plot of the game starts it off with "Now you're in Rapetopia, enjoy!" Bollocks! Bullcrap! As far as I know, the train had the ability to planeshift to the wetdreams of the FATAL creators and bring the heroine to OC Donut Steel Moogleland. It's useless! And yes, your snatcher is all about it. Well too bad. Maybe it should have been a Snatcher specific thing to begin with (and oh, I will get to that on there as well...)

Recommendation: Nuke from orbit, and do not stop until you run out of nukes. Then nuke it again.

• Mind-Reading (Ps). Don't care, I suppose it's fine, next.

• Pervy (Ex). Nova covered everything I wanted to say, but I'll say it again. Not only does the name not make sense, nor does the immunity make sense, but it's niche of a niche of a niche of a niche. You might as well be immune to the slam attacks green penguins with mohawks named Greatzel riding a sphinx, but only during night on a racetrack. Recommendation: Drop it so hard you'd think you're listening to dubstep.

• Misguided Worship: Because their "deity" is nothing more than smoked ham, Mogeko clerics and favored souls treat their Wisdom and Charisma scores as being 2 points lower than it actually is for the purposes of spellcasting and turning/rebuking undead. (This does not apply to their Mind-Reading and Abduction abilities. Also, keep in mind that just like any other race that has a patron deity, only Mogeko clerics and favored souls are restricted to worshipping Lord Prosciutto. Mogekos of other classes can, in fact, worship other deities, assuming that they are aware of said other deities' existence and willing to risk the wrath of their fellow Mogekos.) Even though you've told me otherwise, I still find this to exactly be baking in worship to a specific being. As a race feature. You realize that's really meant for things that are either genetic, or super-built into their culture and, in this latter case, it's really more of things like racial weapons and racial counters than this. All this does is focus PCs into worshiping ham or missing out on that sweet +4 Wis they really shouldn't have in the first place, and ignoring Cha. Oh wait, it only applies to two classes out of infinity. In that case, never be a megeko cleric or favored soul lest you be screwed over. You can be a healer, or a druid, or a anything homebrew ever instead and ignore this. This "feature" is misguided, and serves no point but to pidgeonhole and confuse. Recommendation: BURN IT WITH HOLY PROMETHIUM! THE ONLY TRUE GOD IS EIJI!

Ah, you know... I have a feeling you still don't get it. So I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do the heavy lifting. Time to show you how to subtle. Here we go!

---

SHITTY MOOGLES

Shitty moogles are small cat-like beings from another dimension, with a hedonistic and sociopathic society bent on kidnapping and subjugating other species.

Personality It is a small wonder that the shitty moogle species has survived this long. Slaves to their own dark passions, these hedonists have no ethical or moral constraints to their behavior. In other to keep from preying on their own, they instead prey on other species by luring them into their territory and stealing them away for their own purposes. Without the flow of other beings into their world, they would inevitably set upon themselves and tear themselves apart. As a result, their society is ruled by the strongest who sets the tone for all other shitty moogles to follow... or suffer the consequences.

Physical Description Standing half as tall as a human, yet round and stout, they have the appearance of large rotund bipedal cats covered in yellow fur and with squinted black or red eyes and with thin curly black tails. Their species is dominated by the male of their kind, likely a result of their barbaric natures making it difficult for females to survive to adulthood, or perhaps merely due to the nature of their genes.

Relations The shitty moogle race had long ago expended any good will with others, retreating to a demiplane known only as the Plane of Shit. Thus those seen outside of the Plane of Shit are a rare sight, often outcasts of their kind who dare not return and have made their living as adventures. They survive only by the fortune that none have found a proper entrance to the Plane of Shit, lest hoards of paladins storm in to cleave and smite all that they see in this blasted forgotten land.

Outside of the Plane of Shit, shitty moogles are either unknown, or loathed if they are recognized. Shitty moogles do well to keep their heads low, and their noses clean, lest they find themselves lynched.

Alignment Shitty moogles are usually chaotic evil, though exiles may be of various alignments.

Lands The Plane of Shit is a terrible place, a land of dark colors and dreadful cities built on the backs of kidnapped creatures from beyond their world. Here, King Crap sits upon his throne surrounded by all the self indulgent pleasures he commands, its walls thick enough to drown out the screams of the shitty moogles he executes for not following his strict and brutal regulations.

Religion Perhaps as a mockery to the concept of religion, or perhaps due to the madness of their current king, those in the Plane of Shit worship a slice of ham known as "Lord Jarring-Tone-Shift". The absurd nature of the deity contracts sharply with the dark nature of the shitty moogles themselves. Exiles, freed from this restriction, may choose to follow other gods or may abandon religion altogether.

Language Shitty moogles speak common, typically with verbal tickets involving the common phrase "shit".

Names Shitty moogles usually refer to themselves as "Shitty Mog" or "Shit-tan", though some may adopt names from those outside their kingdom.

---

There. There we go. This looks much much better. And hey, we reduce "they're fapping in your face LOLOOLOLOLOLOL" to "they're passionate, their hedonists, they're evil... you now can choose if your game simply glosses over their evil, or if you want to go full FATAL and define them as pinnacles of sin and lust, depraved assholes with no redeeming qualities, sitting upon a field of broken children".

And THAT is how you do it. That is how you take pygga, ostensibly panty sniffing, panty fapping, dirty old men stereotypes.... that is how you take succubi, ostensibly evil femme fatalles not above betrayal, rape, murder, and mental and physical abuse... that is how you take something horrible and treat it with respect. By not mentioning it directly, by suggesting, and by letting the DM do his god damn job and decide exactly how far he wants to take this shitshow into adventures for adult lechery.

BOOM motherfuckers! -- Eiji-kun (talk) 08:12, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

The fluff ideas are actually good, and I'll probably implement them. The mechanics stuff will need a bit more thought, though. --Luigifan18 (talk) 16:18, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Okay, regarding the mechanics (and some miscellaneous complaints)...

• Kobolds are socialistic, huh? I'd imagine Mogekos being the same way — even the aberrants who don't buy into that "we are a single entity" mumbo-jumbo are natural-made empaths and thrive best in a highly social setting.
• The playlist is for "Mogeko Castle with Voices", a fandub of Mogeko Castle that is really well-done in my opinion. It's gut-bustingly hilarious at points, but also quite poignant. Basically, the hyperlink is there so that readers can get a solid Mogeko Castle experience and have a decent idea of what the race is.
• The Cat subtype is something I've seen on a few other races on this wiki, and personally, if there are going to be different subtypes for different humanoid races (like human, elf, dwarf, and halfling), there should also be subtypes for different sorts of anthro humanoids. Besides, different subtypes opens the door for them to be affected differently by different sorts of things. I mean, let's face it, it would just be silly for a dog or a bear to go nuts over catnip. For a cat, it'd be expected.
• One of Eiji's criticisms of Abduction reads as: "You think you're gonna waste it away on the chance to chase after some pedobait? No, you're a goddamn PC, you're gonna use it to solve the point of the campaign! Turns out you DIDN'T need to save the princess from the dragon, she's in 10 miles! What's that about an evil orc warlord? A trip to hell and some naptime should solve that problem." That, to me, sounds like a fantastic reason to keep Abduction. Because it sounds like a really fantastic tool for the PCs to break out once in a blue moon to resolve a plot that might otherwise end in disaster. What's that, the BBEG just ran away to another plane? No problem, we can just drag him back!
• "Misguided Worship" was Ghostwheel's idea. He quite justifiably pointed out that Mogeko clerics could potentially be overpowered, so I introduced that "feature" in order to nerf them. I was also under the impression that clerics in general had to follow their race's patron deity, if it had one — that is, high elf clerics would have to worship Correllon Larethian, drow clerics would have to worship Lolth, dwarf clerics would have to worship Moradin, gnome clerics would have to worship Garl Glittergold, et cetera. Upon rereading the Player's Handbook, though, I found that I had it backwards; that is, if a given god is the patron deity of a given race, a cleric can't worship that god unless he or she belongs to that race. So, really, the only reason I'm keeping Misguided Worship around is to avoid making Mogeko clerics overpowered, I guess... If I do decide to tone down the racial ability modifiers (which I am considering), I'm definitely dropping this feature outright.
• I'm pretty sure that Mogekos aren't that cut-out for long chases; most of the chase sequences in Mogeko Castle are rather short, and Yonaka mainly gets away from the Mogekos by outrunning them. Besides, cats in general tend to lack stamina, so I suppose that's a sort of fridge brilliance. I'm keeping the Mogeko movement speed as is, but to avoid issues with wonky armor precedents, I'll just state flat-out that a Mogeko in medium or heavy armor moves as fast as a halfling in medium or heavy armor.
• Mogekos aren't completely lacking in insight. They're bizarrely philosophical and have a knack for knowing things that they have no business knowing. They generally don't use their insight to its full potential because they're morons. Also, the Player's Handbook itself states that "if you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom". Mogekos may be goofy, but they definitely have acute senses (they just never get to really take advantage of them from Yonaka's viewpoint in Mogeko Castle because they get stricken with hay fever, which is basically a plot contrivance). I do see where the issue comes from, though, as the Player's Handbook also says that "a character with high Wisdom may be sensible, serene, 'in tune', alert, or centered"; I dunno what they mean by "centered", but the rest of those terms, with the exception of "alert", make very poor descriptions of Mogekos. For now, I'm keeping the racial modifiers as they are, though I'll definitely consider dropping the Wisdom and Intelligence modifiers to +2 and −2, respectively. As for those who say that high penalties don't balance out high bonuses, I've got two words for you: ability damage. Getting reduced to 0 in any ability score takes you out of a fight (and Constitution 0 flat-out kills you), so any creature that gets hammered with ability damage to a score they're weak in is going to be in trouble. Yes, I know it could be considered Balance by Giant Salamander, but hey, ability damage makes for a great discouragement to min-maxing in general; as a DM, I know I'd have no qualms with abusing it.

So, yeah, that's how I'm defending the mechanics. (You'll notice that I didn't mention Pervy; I'm definitely dropping that one.) Now, anyways, I have some fluff to retool; Eiji had some really good ideas on that front. --Luigifan18 (talk) 22:32, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

You seem to misunderstand Eiji's biggest problem with the Misguided Worship. Even if this weakens both Clerics and Favored Souls, all other wisdom based classes are unaffected by this solution. Druids, Bards, Swordsages, and many, many more are unaffected by this adjustment. This also is very weird when bringing up the fact of Clerics following an Alignment instead of a deity. In D&D atheists can be Clerics too.

There remains the issue where this scent lets them pinpoint in twenty feet. Why is their Scent more powerful than most? Why don't they have the standard Scent feature? --Novaform (talk) 23:53, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Hiding is supposed to be pretty much useless against Mogekos; it's explicitly and repeatedly stated in the source material that you cannot hide from them. Having a powerful scent ability is a large part of what makes Mogekos so good at detecting someone who's trying to stay hidden; indeed, when a Mogeko's sense of smell is blocked, such as by hay fever or a strong interfering odor, they become far less capable of finding things, to the point where hiding from them is actually possible.

As for Misguided Worship, that's a solution to the problem of overpowered Mogeko archer-clerics. It's not perfect, but the Mogekos are supposed to be super-perceptive, so I didn't want to lower their Wisdom outright and take away weaken that sweet, sweet bonus to Spot and Listen checks. --Luigifan18 (talk) 00:33, 2 November 2015 (UTC)