User talk:Luigifan18/Mindbreaker (3.5e Class)
Ratings
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Leziad opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4. |
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| It has been long enough and none of the issues I pointed out has been fixed. It started as a psionic variant of one of my class, the class in question suffered a mild bloat in class features.
A psionic version is fair, however the constant addition of new class features with very little removal of other class features made this class pretty bloated. The further addition of madness and mindbreak on top of it just broke it utterly and totally. Beside infinite dark insight loop, insane amounts of madness, fear cone that fuck you over sideways. This class is so bloated it a chore to read. It goes further that the author edited many power not his to add pain point mechanics, which I will need to clean up. I know the author meant well, but adding extra stuff on top of the Tormentor and then adding madness was a really bad idea. And it shows. |
Comments
Alright so you asked for a review, for one this looks pretty promising. There are a few issues though, let's start with the following in spending your pain points:
- No such thing as a vile bonus, might be a mistake I made in my own class though. The word is profane. It's a very minor issue.
- Recovering Power Points is a bad idea, being a daily mechanic. Maybe cap the maximum amount of pp you can regain per day? (I appear to have done so in my own tormentor, I should also put a limit on that.)
- Increasing your manifester level should be limited as well, right now it makes the wilder green with jealousy.
More later but right now I need to get dinner. --Leziad (talk) 22:55, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
- Alright, the only issues I can see are the two powers I outlined above. Since it's impossible to limit power points in the same way I did with spell slots, there is a lesser-known rule that could be useful for you: Temporary Power Points. TPP don't stack together, they overlap. I do not remember where they are from, however. --Leziad (talk) 23:13, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
- Using pain points to recharge power points is a core feature of the class; the tradeoff is that the mindbreaker's power point pool is much smaller than that of other full manifesting classes, like the psion and wilder. I reduced the size of the power point pool just in case that wasn't clear enough. I also reduced the duration of the manifester level boost. --Luigifan18 (talk) 14:20, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- Duration is not the problem, wilder has it as the next power they manifest. With psionic you can augment powers way beyond their normal range, like turn dominate person into dominate monster. I'd recommend limiting the manifester level boost to up to 1/3rd of your class level. --Leziad (talk) 14:40, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- All right, I'll do that. --Luigifan18 (talk) 15:36, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- Also, I intentionally made the power point recharge option a full-round action (the tormentor refreshes spell slots as a standard action) and made it render the mindbreaker flat-footed, provoke attacks of opportunity, and require Concentration checks if distracted in order to make it difficult to get away with in combat — especially if trying to recover a lot of power points. (The mindbreaker does get uncanny dodge, but not until level 7, and even then, he needs to be psionically focused to benefit from said uncanny dodge, making the option to expend psionic focus to get more power points a bit of a trap function.) --Luigifan18 (talk) 16:02, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Economy.Exe has Stopped Working
Flavor problems aside with gaining dark insight and madness through torture (and there are plenty) the class kind of borked the whole dark insight/madness economy. Dark Insight isn't easy to get, it require time and adventuring and the expenditure of resources. Beside that madness and mindbreak are the downside of dark insight, they make having a high score a dangerous thing beside all it boons.
Now you gave an incredibly quick infinite dark insight engine with complete and utter immunity to mindbreak to the same class, borking the whole system. Even if he couln't inflict it on himself, he can literally create Dark Insight 1000+ minions who he doesn't care if they mindbreak.
Now immunity to mindbreak, I wrote a lot of material about the thing and don't think im being a purist about it, but the dark insight problem above shine on why I made no way of being inherently immune to mindbreak to PC. Flavorwise mindbreak is a pretty huge thing, it knowledge that is so eldritch and inhuman it is physically hurtful. It seeing an Eldritch God through a small portal, it peering into another plane through a portal, it having your vision reality shattered by 'fingers' of a abomination from elseworlds... and the mindbreaker is immune to it utterly and completely at level 3. --Leziad (talk) 20:56, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
- I had a post here, but then I was ninja'd. May as well put the flavor thing here, it's weird. It's a torture class, right? Why can it give dark insight, an issue of knowledge, not pain?
- "Oh no don't waterboard me, aghargahghahhghghh!!!"
- "Now talk fool!"
- "Never! Also why do I suddenly know the Seven Secrets of Yog Sothoth, Gate of the Infinite Worlds? Here, waterboard me again and maybe I can figure out this Cthulthu thing next. By the way, what the hell is a Cthulthu?"
- The idea behind the mindbreaker's ability to grant dark insight is that an experienced mindbreaker becomes so damn skilled at breaking people's minds that he might as well be an eldritch being, even though he actually isn't. An experienced mindbreaker is just as dangerous to the sanity of those around him as freakin' Cthulhu himself. And waterboarding isn't a mindbreaker's style; he vastly prefers gaslighting and other forms of mental torture, the key word being mental. He considers physical torture to be beneath him, a waste of his talents and a degradation of his art. He breaks people's minds for fun; it's his idea of a good time.
- The mindbreaker isn't so much immune to mindbreak as much as it is, well, a mindbroken mindbreaker is the exact same thing as a not mindbroken mindbreaker. Inflicting madness on him is a moot point; he revels in it. It pleases him. So, mechanically, he's immune to it. --Luigifan18 (talk) 02:31, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- Oh, and one thing I forgot; Mental Assault is exactly what it sounds like. The mindbreaker uses his psychic power to directly attack the mind of his victim. --Luigifan18 (talk) 02:37, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- I've been following this conversation for a little while now. I'm not entirely sure you understand the premise of Mindbreak. It is not merely madness. Gaslighting makes it so that people doubt what they see, so that they go insane or go mad. Mindbreak is not going mad. Madness cannot necessarily prevent mindbreaking, either. Mindbreaking is not the loss of understanding or sense, but learning things one cannot fathom. Something beyond what one's brain or maybe even very soul is incapable (regardless of power level) of comprehending without damage.
- Beyond this, how can a meager strike instill complete understanding of what cannot be. Especially from a being incapable of fully comprehending it.
- On an alternative note, your argument ignores the mechanical issues that were reflected. Mindbreak was created to function as a downside to Dark Insight, which, before Mindbreak, had none. This immunity causes the only downside to be negated and all benefits, balanced along with that downside to be thrown askew from its scale. How does your class retain the proper penalties for its benefits? --Novaform (talk) 03:07, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- The mindbreaker can't grant dark insight until level 10... And his whole shtick is damaging the minds of others. --Luigifan18 (talk) 14:00, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- I think the bigger part there was "immune to cthulthu, level 3". That said, I do agree it seems out of place. Dark insight isn't damaging your mind (that's madness and mindbreak), and the flavor seems ill fitting. On the matter of infinite dark insight, remember dark insight does carry some "benefits". Besides fail-less warped plane shifting, and its use in the new dark insight spells, you can suddenly identify even the most obscure eldritch being, and engage in battles of will against Yog Sothoth... and win. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 14:11, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- I know that, I just couldn't think of anything else madness-related that could be the equivalent of changing ability damage to ability drain. I'll be happy to change it if I can come up with a good alternative... you have any ideas?
- As for the immunity to mindbreak, I could change it to "you need X more madness before you mindbreak", X being equal to your class level. --Luigifan18 (talk) 15:59, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- I still see the infinite dark insight loop in mental ravage, and class level to madness is my typical go-to, although usually it from class with few level but that fine. On a very minor note in Student of the Old Gods, the being associated the most with mindbreak is the Old God, not the Old Gods. It a single being (probably) bot a whole pantheon of them (thankfully). --Leziad (talk) 20:01, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- Like I said earlier, if madness is treated like ability damage, then dark insight is the closest equivalent to ability drain that I could think of, seeing as it increases vulnerability to mindbreak. I'll be happy to change it if someone can think of a better alternative. --Luigifan18 (talk) 14:27, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
- There is absolutely no parallel between ability damage and ability drain with madness and dark insight. Dark Insight is literally knowledge of the forbidden lore and things that should not be. Mindbreak is the hostile knowledge, you are more vulnerable to it the more dark insight you have because you are able to understand it faster and better. The better parallel is that madness is ability damage and dark insight is having an ability score. Mental ravage literally break the dark insight/madness system in place, it ceases working as intended as soon as the mindbreaker come into play. --Leziad (talk) 19:01, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
(RESET INDENT) Right, I was aware that I'd risk that, but I seriously don't have any better ideas. Do you have any? --Luigifan18 (talk) 22:16, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
- Honestly I'd always choose ability damage/drain over inflicting madness. Not only wisdom drain can kill someone, but it ALSO make someone more susceptible to madness. The only other alternative is madness that recover super slowly.--Leziad (talk) 23:02, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
- Sure, let's go with madness that goes away slowly. And by "slowly", I mean "never". (Unless you use restoration.) --Luigifan18 (talk) 14:20, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
