Talk:Rouge (3.5e Class)

Ratings

Luigifan18 favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!

I really want to like this, but... why the hell is it only 10 levels?!? Okay, I can look past the 10 levels thing (even though I think it's rather silly to force someone to multiclass; prestige classes that can't go on forever are one thing, since you're multiclassing anyways by taking the prestige class in the first place, but when dealing with a base class, it gets kind of absurd). And to be honest, I really like the abilities, both mechanically and in terms of flavor. It's a solid class, despite the inherent stupidity of forcing you to take another class after level 10. It gets bonus points for employing lots of puns — I love puns.

	Eiji-kun favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	Oh god all the puns... And you know, it's actually a very good class even without the puns. I'd take it!

10 Levels

While classes are usually 20 levels, that's not actually a requirement. There's a few examples of 5, 10, and 15 level base classes about the wiki. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 03:37, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Non-20 classes are around in homebrewing (I think we have at least like 40 of them), especially where stretching the class out past its conceptual range is actually detrimental to its design, when characters should be branching out into specializations like prestige classes and the base class just serves to establish the core of the character's mechanics. Why does being only 10 levels present itself as a problem? --Ganteka Future (talk) 04:09, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

It's bad for formulas dependent on class level, like save DCs. --Luigifan18 (talk) 23:45, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

The problem in those cases is the fact that such a formula was used. Vertical growth should scale with class level (because you must assume that players will find a way to stack it), while horizontal growth should scale with character level. Save DCs count as horizontal growth because if you can't make the attack even land, then you effectively do not have it at all; therefore save DCs should scale with character level. IMO, switch Seeing Red to use character level for the DC, and the level 10 cap will have no problems whatsoever. --DanielDraco (talk) 14:30, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The opposite IMO--vertical advancement (higher DCs, higher attack rolls, etc) should come as part of being higher character level so that you can continue to be a threat to (and not be auto-killed by) enemies. OTOH, horizontal advancement (new options) should come from class level, where you unlock new, specialized abilities by continuing in your class, or more abilities dissimilar to your primary class by multiclassing. So you might just be messing up vertical vs. horizontal advancement, DD ;-) --Ghostwheel (talk) 14:54, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't see higher DCs and attack rolls as being vertical advancement. Those aren't efficacious in themselves -- they open the door for you to apply your vertically scaling abilities. Which is to say they give you additional powers in a qualitative way, or let you keep the powers you once had; they are horizontal. Vertical advancement is more damage, more debuff, an upgrade from shaken to frightened -- quantitative changes to things you can already do. I admit that while you remain within the RNG, more save DC is more vertical power on average; but the difference between class level growth and character level growth is generally a large enough number that it is the difference, in practice, between having the ability and not having the ability.

Whatever we classify as growing in which direction, it remains true that save DCs are a poor candidate for class level advancement, while easily stacked things like damage and attack bonus are very good candidates for it. This class suffers in precisely one place from its level 10 cap, and that is easily fixed. --DanielDraco (talk) 15:13, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I guess my real problem is that I think it's stupid to outright force someone to multiclass. It's acceptable for a prestige class to end before level 10 (and therefore have no capacity for gaining more levels than that in the class) because if you take a prestige class, you've already made the decision to be a multiclassed character. With a base class that ends before level 20 (and therefore lacks infinite level advancement, epic-wise), a character who starts out in the class hits a brick wall upon reaching the highest level, and their next level has to be in another class. They literally have no choice but to multiclass. What if they're perfectly happy with the class they started out in?!? They shouldn't be required to take levels in a different class if they don't want to! Multiclassing carries XP penalties, you know! ...So, yeah, that's what really irks me — the fact that a character can't be allowed to continue a career that they're comfortable in. --Luigifan18 (talk) 15:29, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I tend to agree that so-called "base" classes should proceed to the end of a character progression (be that E6, E20, unbounded, whatever). But it's a point of taste. I tend to overlook the detail if and only if there is some class to continue advancement without radically transforming what the character is and does. So, in my view, this class is fine -- you can continue it with pretty much any fighting class -- but [[1]], for example, is not. --DanielDraco (talk) 20:52, 9 October 2015 (UTC)