Talk:White Mage (3.5e Class)

Thanks

Thanks for uploading this, yo. Surgo 03:24, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Lol Wut?

"Aspect of the Wolverine". ....uh... uhhhh..... lol?

Actually after I saw that I looked at some of the other powers closer, BAB and saves and all. Parody class or serious attempt, if serious, I got some advice for ya. -- Eiji Hyrule 04:57, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Gotta agree with the above trope--err, I mean, poster on this one. The ability to access any divine/arcane PrC (and the extra spells that can easily come along with that) as well as a few other class abilities I noticed seem to be hands-and-feet above rogue-level. --Ghostwheel 05:19, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

@AotWolverine: Yeah, I just went silly there and duplicated the worst of the X-Men character. This is a serious class pre-20, though. I should probably reduce it to a "less-than-the-%$*(ing Tarrasque" level anyway.

@Any arcane/divine PrC: How is this problematic? They have the ability to qualify for most PrCs a Sorcerer or Favored Soul could plausibly take, but their spell selection is "Abjurations, Healing spells, some subpar Evocations". The strongest boost I see this enabling is "White Mage/Radiant Servant"... I'm having trouble seeing a problem with heavy-duty healing powers you mostly have anyway and slightly better subpar Evocations.

@Other abilities: I haven't actually run the SGT on this class at levels 7, 10, and 15, and I haven't done two-character test runs, so it's possible that post-5 things and synergy need some revision. If you can see anything specific that's overpowering, or even better want to run the tests, I'd love to hear about it. Quantumboost 06:41, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

For the PrCs, some that come to mind include, but aren't limited to... Rainbow Servant, Mage of the Arcane Order (via Arcane Preperation), Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Incantatrix, Recaster, Dweomerkeeper, and a few others that I don't remember off-hand. (Since you qualify for all of these what with being able to cast level X spells, either arcane or divine, as suits you, right? Or did I miss something?) --Ghostwheel 07:56, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

And most of those PrCs are problematic and broken on their own, so what's the problem? That's like arguing any arcane class is broken just because it can go into Incantatrix. It's a really unfair argument. -Karr

Fair enough--though the prospect of having a PC going Incantatrix / Dweomerkeeper makes me go "ugh". Still, probably more of a problem with the PrCs, and less with the actual class. --Ghostwheel 23:41, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, as far as PrCs are concerned, you're able to cast level X spells of either arcane or divine, or both, as suits you. And you can't get more than one class level equivalent even if the PrC would let you do so. Quantumboost 09:48, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

SGT

Thought I'd see how the class faired against the level 10 SGT; here goes:

• Magical rune traps - the white mage has more than enough healing to deal with almost any number of traps. --Win
• Fire giant - while the fire giant has decent HP and damage, it needs to get close to make use of them. The white mage should have enough HP to weather a round or two of attacks until they can get close enough and plane shift (DC 23-25) the fire giant to the abyss. --Win
• Young Blue Dragon - This could prove problematic at first as the blue dragon does strafing runs with his breath weapon in an attempt to kill the white mage through attrition; however, the white mage can create a wall of force above them, forcing the dragon to come down into melee. From there, Freedom of Movement can be used to make sure grappling won't be an issue and with the right protective spells the dragon won't be able to melee attack the white mage either. A few castings of Plane Shift and poof the dragon goes once he fails one of the saves. --Win

Wall of Force is 1/round level, so not much of a worry for the Dragon who can wait it out. Surgo 18:19, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

Sure, that could work. Another way to win is to blast the dragon with Searing Light rays every time it passes by, and healing up during the 1d4+1 rounds that it takes for the dragon to recharge its weapon. Furthermore, with Flashes of Light and Pew Pew, the White Mage can easily cast this spell 3x in one round, dealing 15d8 damage (one-third of the dragon's life in a single round). --Ghostwheel 18:57, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

• Bebilith - same deal, except even the bebilith's most potent attack, its poison, is negated through a swift action by the white mage. --Win
• Vrock - once again the same, and any pal the vrock chooses to summon can be hedged out through Magic Circle vs. Evil. --Win
• Mind Flayers - with the high will base save as well as the high wisdom (casting stat), the white mage should have no problem resisting the mind blasts. Then rinse-repeat with the plane shifts. --Win
• Evil Necromancer - Turn Undead & Undead to Death takes care of the necromancer's minions, and we can pick up Reciprocal Gyre (CA) not for the damage, but for the stun effect. Dazing for 1d6 rounds spells doom for the necromancer who's unable to do anything. --Win
• 6 trolls - this could be problematic, but the White Mage can keep themselves healed up with quick action healings, keep themselves un-grappled through Freedom of Movement, and send 4-5 of the trolls to the abyss without a problem, taking time to kill the last two with more mundane damage through Searing Light and the like --Win
• Horde of shadows - Turn Undead, quick healing spells. 'Nuff said. --Win

This is theoretical, of course, but I think that an actual test against the above monsters using the same tactics (or similar ones) would arrive at about the same conclusion. Thoughts? --Ghostwheel 10:14, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

Looks like reasonable strategy; I'll check out the specifics of the battles and see how much needs to be removed/shunted to later levels. Thanks. Quantumboost 23:22, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I've removed plane shift from the spell list (there shouldn't be any SoD effects on there, and apparently temporary idiocy made me forget that plane shift did that) and modified Pew Pew and slightly depowered Friggin' Lasers. Will try to get an SGT at 10th with the modified abilities up. Quantumboost 23:51, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

Is there any opposition to making this a wizard-level class (ie let's not nerf it too much, though it probably needed a little as shown above)? Surgo 05:42, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to it. I'm still going to work towards an SGT balance point, but if you think a Wizard point reflects it better, go ahead. Quantumboost 07:08, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

I realized that since the White Mage breaks when it even has plane shift it'll probably break when it has any SoD... and it can pick some up with Attune Sphere or Attune Domain (Death or Dominion at the very least). I'm going to have to rework this with that accounted for then - and hopefully that'll compensate for a lot of the problems that would probably show up with a 2-person team as well. Quantumboost 05:46, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's a huge problem -- wizard level, not better than a wizard, better than being a healbot. Maybe Plane Shift should even be put back on the spell list. While we're at it, I'd kind of want to put Pew Pew back the way it was. Surgo 16:02, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

Complete/Incomplete?

I've filled out the saves/BAB and I *think* I've filled out the missing abilites; is there something more I need to do to get the "Incomplete" tag removed? Quantumboost 17:01, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

I did it. Surgo 00:52, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Cool, thanks much. Quantumboost 22:07, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Is there anything left to do here? Is it balanced in a way you like? Surgo 15:57, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

Changes

Were the offense nerfs really necessary? The class has to at least be fun to play, and I don't think having the good offense made the class "too good". Surgo 03:46, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

I suppose I could instead, say, change Instant Ward to not apply to AC - the big deal was, it was doing too well on the SGT (6 wins of which 4 were definite, 3 losses) and the trolls were basically helpless against a "shield" of blistering radiance on top of self-healing.

Actually, I probably should change Instant Ward anyway - I'd prefer the White Mage lose to damage spikes, since it's not going down to SoDs very often and attrition is iffy at the best of times. Quantumboost 04:06, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

It's really really good on the SGT, but so is the Cleric, and the Tome Fighter. I don't think it's too good. Surgo 04:08, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Hm. Alright, I'll avoid adding blistering radiance back in, but the CL bonus/lucent lance/[Light] advanced training are probably fine for now. Quantumboost 04:25, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

So I wanted to play one of these with the offense added back in, and it was pointed out to me that at level 11 it's pretty nuts because Heal is a great spell and you can cast it several times a round. That's great for the Cures, not so good for Heal. Maybe Pew Pew can only effect Cures and [Light] spells, as opposed to Healing spells in general. Surgo 15:54, January 20, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, Surgo and I had a chat over IM. Pew Pew is now [Light] and specifically Cure spells, Extra Life was deemed a) useless because it's Raise Dead and b) redundant due to revenance + revivify. Added plane shift back onto the spell list, though it's willing-only at the moment. Moar dataz are required.

More Ability Comments

I'll put them here as they come to me. First is Ascension -- I imagine a lot of White Mages will be Aasimars for the good synergy, so that ability is pretty much a do-nothing there. Intentional?

Also, Magic Hands -- the only ability in the class that appears to fire off of Wisdom instead of Charisma. Again, intentional? Surgo 17:21, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Oh man, I just noticed the spell DC was Wisdom-based and bonus spells are Charisma-based. Is that strictly necessary? Surgo 17:22, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

It's the same reason as for the Elementalist - the White Mage has two different attributes that it wants. It's to avoid the complete SADness of Wizards. Magic Hands going off Wisdom is intentional for the same reason. Ascension gives out the Outsider type, but Aasimar White Mages still benefit from the immunity to petrification. The type change (for non-Aasimar) is pretty much just flavoring. Quantumboost 17:40, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Got it, though it seems like a real double-gimp to give them both dual spellcasting stats as well as staggered Sorcerer spellcasting. Also, I noticed the Sun domain spells (well, most of them) were already on the spell list. Again, intentional? While on the topic of spells, I think Prismatic Spray would be a pretty thematic spell to pick up at level 13 but it's impossible to get because it's not [Light]. Surgo 18:54, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, the Sun Domain overlap is... well, not intentional, but the extra spells weren't the main purpose of adding it. The important part was gettting the greater turning and the ability to qualify for certain things; specifically, the Radiant Servant PrC. That said, you still get 5/9 spells that weren't on your spell list before (heat metal, fire shield, flame strike, fire seeds, prismatic sphere).

Prismatic spray does seem thematically appropriate; I think it's the only one of the Prismatics that doesn't qualify, but I'll add Prismatics in general to Advanced Learning. Quantumboost 20:28, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Pew Pew

...is maybe more powerful than you anticipated. There are fairly potent spells with the light descriptor. Not to mention the offensive use of cure spells on undead. --DanielDraco 04:01, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

See the balance level of the class :-P lol --Ghostwheel 05:06, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Just because Wizard-level CAN extend to Pun-Pun and beyond, that doesn't mean it should. Yes, it's valid. No, it's probably not good design. --DanielDraco 05:28, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Extending wizard level to Pun-Pun is neither helpful nor productive, and it should stop. I wrote Pun-Pun out of the balance level in the project page yesterday even, but if you think that was a bad call you know where to comment on that. I'm honestly not even sure the level extends to Cheater of Mystara and their immunity bubble. There should be an upper limit to wizard level, just as there's a lower limit on monk, otherwise there's no point and you can't reasonably expect two wizard level classes to even be playing the same game.

Regarding this ability, yeah, they own undead with pew pew cure spells in conjunction with the reach, chain, empowered, and uncapped bonuses from brilliance. And they can do it even if they aren't casting their higher level spells to do so. I'm actually okay with them owning undead really hard as it's just a subset of encounters (or adventures, or campaigns), and they don't have all that much to do against non-undead other than throw abjurations at them or keeping the party going. But if there are [Light] spells that I'm forgetting about that allow them to basically own everyone once they hit that level, that would likely be problematic for the balance level. Got any of those spells in mind DD? - Tarkisflux ^Talk 06:15, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm currently trying to revise the White Mage to just not be a beguiler-caster and have straight abilities that do what I want, like the Snowscaper or Puppeteer. Offensive use of cure spells on Undead is intentional; Cure Kills Zombie is a meme from one of the primary sources, and I fully intend for White Mages to just total any undead opposition on the SGT or in actual play. Them totaling a good portion of everything else is unfortunate, and part of the reason for said revision. Numbers work will still have to be done, hopefully the game where I'm playing one will give some good initial results once I get the new stuff arranged. --Quantumboost 18:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)