Talk:Endure Destruction (3.5e Maneuver)

Ratings

Ganteka Future opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.

This maneuver. Oh man, this maneuver. So, it's personal with immediate action usage, alright. It's available at first level. Let's try and compare this to a spell, in this case, something that does a similar action of "immediate action try to save your booty" from any kind of basic HP damage. I can think of close woundsSpC, a 2nd level spell that heals a max of 9 HP in close range as an immediate action. It's a pretty great spell and really underrated. Its main purpose is to mitigate damage as it is happening in an emergency rather than to heal. This maneuver obviously isn't a spell though. It does have some conditions to it, but at 1st level it can already do more mitigation than close wounds can. While close range has value versus personal range, we're also talking about something that has no daily limit at all here. So, for those 9 HP you can heal in an emergency once a day at 5th level for close wounds as a 2nd level spell, with this 1st level maneuver you can instead mitigate 50 HP per damage source for 1 round, and then use the maneuver again a round later after refreshing if you want, assuming you can meet the conditions again of course. It also scales and gets even ever stronger as well. The core concept is fine, but it's not even remotely close to being a 1st level maneuver for what the author wants done with it. As is, oppose.

	Undead_Knave opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	As is, Gan is absolutely right. I know this has been nerfed previously, but it's still too strong as is.

	The bluez in the dungeon favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	10/10 this just saved my warforged from the guards' spears

	Luigifan18 favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	Hey, cool, it's indomitability as a maneuver. Except it can't be repeatedly abused at 1 hp, so it's more of a Last Chance Hit Point.

A defense

Ganteka's comments have their merit, but I think the rating isn't really appropriate: this maneuver blocks just one source of damage per round, so that at high level it would not be impossible to keep attacking in the same round a target who negated damage. Even if the attack came from, let's say, a spell, you could probably repeat it the next round, when the maneuver will most likely not be ready. So, if not the first attack the next one will get you (in addition to the fact that the attack must be one that brings you under 1 hp).

Having said this, Ganteka's reasoning still mostly stands: I'd suggest lowering the damage negated or putting a cap and creating higher versions or tying the effect to a Fortitude save that halves the damage negated on a failed check. --The bluez in the dungeon (talk) 23:35, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Ooops I didn't get it right: this negates all the damage that would bring under 1 hp for one round, not only for one attack. Hmmmm I like it, but I suggest to limit it to one attack at 1st level. Consider making an higher level version if you want to keep this as it is. --The bluez in the dungeon (talk) 23:40, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

It simply isn't balanced to other maneuvers of its level. In concept, it isn't even a 1st level maneuver. Endure Pain, probably. Endure Punishment, sure. Endure Onslaught, sounds a bit rougher. But Endure Destruction, sounds a bit extreme. Not saying it needs a name change, but from what I know about the concept and what it is supposed to do, this isn't designed to be a 1st level maneuver. I had a heck of a time trying to find something to compare this to. I found a strike that's standard action, you make an attack and get DR 5/adamantine for a round. Swap out the standard and needing to make an attack for an immediate to save your bacon for DR 5/adamantine, and you've got the start of something. This is already twice that, applies to all damage types, stacks with DR and energy resistance and blocks even weird difficult-to-block damage types, on top of which, it scales and keeps scaling and keeps getting stronger and stronger. This article is such a hard no for me.

If material isn't easily usable as is, that would normally be a dislike, since DMs can make tweaks and adjustments on the fly to satisfy the group's needs. This isn't an easy tweak and the article should be sandboxed until it gets re-balanced. --Ganteka Future (talk) 20:20, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Ok, hear me out on this: what if the damage was capped at 10, only worked for one attack and only for physical damage (so no energy enduring). Eiji could make more potent versions for higher levels. As such, this would be "endure blow" and maybe "endure destruction" the last stage? --The bluez in the dungeon (talk) 22:17, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

The design space for the design goal is part of the problem. If you go with 10, you're now invading into the space of close wounds (which is a daily limit spell, higher level, but heals as an immediate, and mitigates less). Mitigating 10 damage at level 1 is... potentially all of a character's HP. A first level melee initiator might have like, 10-15 HP (with 17 being like, the highest high Con toughness d12 dwarf initiator kinda thing). 10 is too much. DR 5/adamantine at 1st level, where you're likely a couple hits from going down, and you can use it against a critical hit easily, is definitely closer to what this should be doing for a "Endure Blow". Splitting this up into a series is probably the way to go, I agree on that. Also, yeah, 1 attack only. --Ganteka Future (talk) 02:56, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

This isn't Stone Bones. You can use Stone Bones whenever you want. You can only use this if you're about to drop. Until then, it's dead space in your readied maneuvers. That is a notable cost to your build, you could be using it for something else you can reliably use. Stone Bones, btw, 1 round.

No comment on other things. This article holds a special bitter place in my heart and I'll handle it whenever I have the mental fortitude to do so. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 03:40, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

A potential alternative: DR 5/adamantine normally, but you can "burn out" the maneuver, just stopping up to 10 points of damage (taking down to 1 hp, then resisting up to 10 hp, kind of thing). It can't be used anymore and another maneuver can't be prepped in its slot until you rest. The DR 5/adamantine is basically always good, but but you can save yourself at the end. Does that seem like a reasonable option? --Undead_Knave (talk) 03:47, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

To me the 5/adamantine thing is not viable, as it would complicate the maneuver and make it redundant. I will follow my own advice and treat it as I said, the rest is up to Eiji or more opposing ratings.--The bluez in the dungeon (talk) 09:29, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Stone Bones and its mechanics were called out earlier on this talk page already, as was how often this maneuver would come up at level 1 as a resource investment. Stone Bones isn't as reliable of a defense as it looks. It's a standard action and requires a successful melee attack. You're level 1, you've got a good chance of missing. --Ganteka Future (talk) 00:36, 26 September 2021 (UTC)