Talk:Mewling (3.5e Race)
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Ratings[edit]
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Leziad dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4. |
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| Almost balanced, almost. The +4 Dex and being small push them a little too far.
I can't stop thinking that this race, which can wield small weapons despite being real close to tiny, have gross overly large for their size furry human hands. That is a disturbing thought. |
Agreed, the vitals are just weird.--Franken Kesey 11:48, 28 May 2019 (MDT)
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Surgo dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4. |
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| It's almost balanced, but a combination of +4 dex and small size is just way too good. |
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Franken Kesey dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4. |
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| +4 to Dex, +8 and +10 to some skill checks for an ECL 1. The skill bonuses in particular are super high. Suggest having them at +4 MAX. Also the vital stats do not align with a small-sized creature. They appear more like tiny-sized. However, tiny can be abused, suggest small with slight build if you want to keep that size. |
Frank do you read? The skills in question are jump (a movement skill like climb or swim and thus a plus 8 racial bonus is not out of line since they don’t get any other benefits to jump, jumping 5 feet up is a dc 20 check 40 for a standing jump and thus a +8 is about 8 or 4 feet horizontally or 4 or 2 feet vertically which is not much) and the +10 is to disguise (as much as the level 1 spell disguise self) to disguising a race that is a sentient housecat as a normal housecat. What is so terrifyingly overpowered about that? Grog toad (talk) 08:47, 26 May 2019 (MDT)
- Grog, are you an idiot? No other SRD race give anything close to those skill bonuses. Any skill bonus above +4 is non-standard. But this race gives: 1) +8 to jump and balance, 2) +10 to disguise, AND 3) a +4 bonus to an ability score. Yet is a LA0.--Franken Kesey 09:43, 26 May 2019 (MDT)
- Perhaps you may have forgotten, but the founding principle of dnd-wiki is that wizards of the coast would fail to balance its way out of a paper bag. At least in regards to 3.5. --Foxwarrior (talk) 09:47, 26 May 2019 (MDT)
- Editing Conflict: Also, a 2 ft.–4 ft cat is massive when compared to the average house cat that is 18 inches (or 1.5 ft). If he wants to keep the size, this should be small with slight build (not regular small). But if it is small with slight build, this should have LA.--Franken Kesey 09:51, 26 May 2019 (MDT)
- Every homebrew author is different. If we balanced things to Frank and K, most articles would be under-powered. And there are many articles on this wiki that are broken. To state that everything here is perfect is inaccurate. Published material is generally more tested and played than homebrew. By the function of published material needing to sell. Published generally has a larger marketing and wider audience. Thus it is a better metric.
- Another major problem with comparing homebrew to homebrew is that anyone can create homebrew which breaks a rule or is broken. Homebrewers are by nature rule breakers -- if they wanted to conform to rules they would not be making homebrew.
- Thus I maintain that this article is broken for three reasons, which are not appropriate for a LA 0: 1) +4 to an ability score, 2) +8 and +10 to racial skill bonuses, 3) flavor and vitals are tiny (or small with slight), yet it is small.--Franken Kesey 10:04, 26 May 2019 (MDT)
- aquatic elves are seed and have a swim speed. Having a swim speed grants a +8 racial bonus to swim checks. Various variant races that do not increase ecl in unearthed arcana have swim and climb speeds which grant the same bonus to the relevant skill. Forest gnomes are ecl 1, are in the srd and have a +8 racial bonus to hide in wooded areas. A +10 bonus to disguise a cat as a cat does not seem “overpowered” just flavorful.
- The 2-4 feet I mentioned above is jump distance not the size of the goddamned cat. Have you ever seen a cat jump? They can do that very easily and that is represented by a large bonus to a frankly mediocre skill.
- Yes tiny creatures have many advantages but I never mentioned their size I was talking about skill bonuses. Also they are small. The only thing remotely overpowered about them is having Scent (or as I like to call it, Blindsense-lite) and even that is incredibly flavorful fitting and only costs 25 gold (for a dog, see Srd equipment), and all very available to a level 1 character.
- Vitals are not important, if sizes were supposed to be accurate a colossal creature’s space would not be a 30ft square (64+ ft in one direction cannot fit within a 30x30x30 cube) Grog toad (talk) 11:02, 26 May 2019 (MDT)
- Kesey has no clue whatsoever when it comes to balance or even the rules of the game itself. Any glance at his "guides" will confirm that for you. Trying to argue with him about it is a waste of time because your argument assumes he understands the game at all, which he does not. Surgo (talk) 11:10, 26 May 2019 (MDT)
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Good to know that even Surgo views this article as being unbalanced.--Franken Kesey 20:35, 26 May 2019 (MDT)
- Plenty of ECL 1 races have darkvision, for example deep dwarves and halflings. Darkvision is much better than scent. The issue remains that this race is too powerful for ECL 1. This is not due to a single skill getting a bonus above +4, it is because it gets +8 to two scores and +10 to another, and has a +4 to dexterity.
- For comparison:
- Goliaths, have +4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con and powerful build at +1 la,
- Races of Wild: Catfolk, +4 Dex, +2 Cha no negatives, 40 ft land base speed, low light, +2 listen and move silently, +1 natural armor, Favored class Ranger, LA +1
- Races of Wild: Gnoll, +4 Str, +2 Con -2 Int, -2 Cha Darvision 60 ft, Two racial HD, +1 natural armor, +1 LA
- Thus this should either get 1 LA, or have its skill and ability bonuses reduced.--Franken Kesey 15:01, 27 May 2019 (MDT)
- Name another published race that is ECL 1, has more than +4 to three skills, and +4 to an ability score.--Franken Kesey 15:22, 27 May 2019 (MDT)
- We need something fair to compare it to. Otherwise you are basing your opinion on nothing.--Franken Kesey 15:33, 27 May 2019 (MDT)
- What I'm comparing it to is "good LA0 races", a list that includes but is not limited to Human (when feats are good), Strongheart Halfling (likewise), Gray Elf (when you want to be a wizard), and Whisper Gnome (just overall huge bonuses). All of these have meaningful bonuses, not +whatever to mostly-useless skill checks like disguising yourself as a housecat. The Mewling comes out a bit better, which is bad, but nowhere near good enough to give up an entire character level for. Surgo (talk) 16:02, 27 May 2019 (MDT)
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+4 to dexterity and +8 to skills is a significant difference from halfling. Plus those are not the only bonuses gained from this race. Lets compare similar races.
Halfling (deep):
- −2 Strength, +2 Dexterity.
- small sized,
- darkvision,
- +2 Appraise, Craft, Listen, Search (with stone), fear,
- +1 saving throws,
- +1 attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings.
Mewling:
- -2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, -2 Constitution,
- small sized,
- scent,
- +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Move Silently, +8 racial bonus to Jump and Balance, +10 bonus to Disguise (to act like a cat); use his Dexterity modifier instead of his Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks (which is already elevated from the +8, thus effectively is +10),
- natural weapons.
The skill bonuses are ridiculous, and the +4 to dex out of place.--Franken Kesey 16:20, 27 May 2019 (MDT)
- That is like asking a deaf man if he can lip read. By nature of him being able to respond it proves the point of your ignorance. Unless you have some sort of magical ability to change what words mean the strongheart STILL does not give a +4 bonus to dex and STILL does not give any skill bonuses above +4 (it technically does not even go above +2). You again have proved my point that this race is unbalanced.--Franken Kesey 16:50, 27 May 2019 (MDT)
- I'm going to go with "you can't read", just like you can't do optimization or can't seem to learn the rules. Nowhere did I say the strongheart halfling had +4 Dex. What I did say was that it was one of the strongest la0 races and can be used as a comparison. Here, I'll paste that I said since you seem to be having so much trouble finding and understanding it:
- What I'm comparing it to is "good LA0 races", a list that includes but is not limited to Human (when feats are good), Strongheart Halfling (likewise), Gray Elf (when you want to be a wizard), and Whisper Gnome (just overall huge bonuses). All of these have meaningful bonuses, not +whatever to mostly-useless skill checks like disguising yourself as a housecat. The Mewling comes out a bit better, which is bad, but nowhere near good enough to give up an entire character level for.
- What nobody has succeeded at doing is find an ECL 1 race with +8 or more to three scores and +4 to an ability. You argument is on shaky footing, because we both agree that this race is unbalanced. We both see the +4 Dex and find it odd. It is just a matter of degree. You patronizing tone is what is polarizing this conversation. Since we agree that this page is unbalance, I have no idea why you continue to argue and prove my points. It is just unproductive.
- None have been able to find a compatible article. Even your own examples are not similar. Which speaks volumes on this work.--Franken Kesey 20:15, 27 May 2019 (MDT)
- LA+1 races are substantially better. The Chaond has +4 dex, +2 con, -2 cha, and shatter as a spell-like ability. Wildren get +4 to a stat, two natural attacks, a burrow speed, darkvision and scent, a barbarian rage, +4 bonus to resist some combat maneuvers, and immunity to humanoid spells. And they aren't even good. You won't find comparison among LA+1 races but it doesn't matter. That's an appeal to authority that literally no one except you cares about because everyone else rightfully recognizes that WotC's "balance" doesn't mean shit. Surgo (talk) 20:39, 27 May 2019 (MDT)
- This is not a LA 1 race. By definition any LA 1 race is not a fair comparison because of course LA 1 races are better than LA 0. Secondly, "if anything is fair to compare to" then we should compare all things to Frank and K! (Good authors, just all their stuff is super powerful.) But of course this would completely re-balance the entire wiki if set the bar at who ever made the most powerful stuff. Which is an obviously stupid idea.
- Unlike you, I like to balance things under good faith. You want to compare this to races that are nothing like this one. Races that are LA 1, or give a whole bunch of stuff that this does not.
- Ironically you keep proving me right in doing this, for a few reasons: 1) examples that have LA 1 and similar properties support that this should be LA 1, 2) you inability to find another race with three skill bonuses at +8 or above proves that this is a bad idea, 3) your attempts at ad hominem attacks prove your argument has no merit, and 4) your inability to find any ECL 1 races with similar features shows you did not look (others have brought up Jungle Goblins and Orcs, you could try there).--Franken Kesey 20:52, 27 May 2019 (MDT)
- Nobody is giving you ECL1 races with big skill check bonuses because they don't exist. They don't not exist because they're a bad idea (they're not), they don't exist because nobody, least of all WotC, bothered to make them. For some reason you're just bizarrely caught up on this skill check bonus thing and keep appealing to some authority that only you care about about it. Meanwhile everyone else just recognizes that most of the skill check bonuses here are not worth caring about. Oh my God, a +8 to Balance checks! What a hor-oh wait, it's Balance, who cares.
- Not once have I claimed WoTC are absolute. Contrariwise, I have been quoted as stating that WoTC are not the absolute authority. You must have misread the above. Reread it. I stated that published works are a fairer metric. Any published work. You still have yet to find a fair article to compare this to.--Franken Kesey 21:07, 27 May 2019 (MDT)
- Also, plenty of races are small size. It is a boon, but not extraordinary. Large and tiny should have LA (to include small with slight or medium with powerful). But medium and small are VERY standard. To state that small and +4 dex alone breaks this race ignores Orcs.--Franken Kesey 21:12, 27 May 2019 (MDT)
Balance[edit]
I'd remove the +2 to AC (that's what the high dex is for) as well as remove one of low light vision/darkvision/scent for the sake of balance (darkvision or scent preferably). --Ghostwheel 03:08, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
- I agree. I'll remove the +2 AC and darkvision now. I trust that EhSteve will revert it if he disagrees strongly enough? --Foxwarrior 19:16, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
- Suggest reducing all racial skill bonuses to +4, then giving them small with slight build at minimum. Anything else may require adoption.--Franken Kesey 10:37, 26 May 2019 (MDT)
- Since the vitals do not match with a small-sized creature, can I change them to match small?--Franken Kesey 14:54, 27 May 2019 (MDT)
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Check out the vitals, they are well below typical small-sized. Since tiny is powerful enough for more LA. Propose instead to keep it as a small-sized race (as the original author intended), but changing vitals. The vitals would more like a small-sized race and just be a copy of the deep halfling, with 5lbs less.--Franken Kesey 16:31, 27 May 2019 (MDT)
