Talk:Mousa (3.5e Race)

LA

I'm gonna need help with it on this one, ideas? Scaling at will spells... -- Eiji Hyrule 17:13, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

Not really good with the LA, but maybe 2 or 3? Also, switching detect thoughts and charm person might make it a little more balanced. Like lesser geas at will you might say is quite strong, but when you get it as late as you do and it has a HD restriction of 7, it really isn't. So it's with that thought in mind that I might consider swapping DT and CP. -- Jota 18:34, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, Tiny is a pretty decent benefit, and may be difficult to pin down, but, it's biggest bonus (+8 to hide) is detrimented by the Glow Body ability, making me say that that idea may be balanced for LA0. Having said that, if it weren't for the SLA's on this guy, I'd officially call him good for LA0, but with all of them on there (depsite the fact that they scale with HD), I'd say prolly LA+1. → Rith ^(talk) 18:49, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm having a tough time pegging down an opinion of power on this thing. The variety of things throws me off, so perhaps just writing it down as I think will help sort it all out. It would be nice if this could be LA0. Right now, its not really built to be anything but LA0 but the spells-at-will really throw me off. Even +2 and -2s, going for LA0, its a good start. With the other benefits of tiny and spells and such, perhaps another -2 Constitution might help even things out. Frail is even mentioned in the flavor. Granted, Constitution penalties hurt a lot. Also, for Chaotic subtype, to they get the bonus of that, being their weapons (and natural weapons) are chaotically aligned for damage reduction purposes and all that business?

Ah, Glow power. Gotta wonder. Can they suppress it indefinitely? Like, can they suppress it and drop their Strength to 0? If so, can they keep suppressing it? Or once they run out of strength, they have to stop? Anyways, its kinda an odd mechanic. I think it could work, and am at a lose for a better solution.

Dreamborn is fine, basically, you don't get deported from banishment type spells while on that plane (sorta like dual citizenship for planes?) Perhaps give them the option of being able to get banished (hey, it might come in handy, maybe).

Extended Reach helps out for actually being useful in combat (as long as they aren't using tiny daggers... wait, that would be hilarious).

Ah, the spells. Crud, makes me think... can they only use the guidance on others or can they use it on themselves? Yeah, that many spells at will troubles me. 3/day would probably make me happier, even then, it still seems like a lot for a base race to be getting (especially with the sheer variety of things available). I also worry about entire towns getting lesser geased into becoming stage performers to put on the greatest play ever, a 3 hour musical version of Robinson Crusoe.

I guess I don't have any final solutions here other than try and tweak and think it over for a few days.

Long live Shiranui Kodama!--Ganteka Future 23:15, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

I'd say swapping DT and CP is a good start, and probably sets it around LA +2 because of the at wills and the size. I'd actually complain about the size, but the things that make it generally unsuitable for PCs (reach, stupid bonuses) have already been dealt with. The emit light or take Str damage thing should be more explicit, like they have to continually concentrate and spend actions to do it (thus excluding doing it while unconscious)

Their at wills aren't a big deal, they just mean (assuming they don't buy the LA off) that in a level 6 party they'll be able to DT at will, and that's fine. In a level 10 party they can CP at will, and I don't really care at that level. At level 14 everyone has a +2 morales bonus to attacks, saves, and skill checks from heroism assuming they weren't getting it from somewhere else... that's basically negligible. At 18 they can lesser geas a town into performing a play or joining an army or whatever, but a wizard could seriously research a viral charm variant and do the same thing more effectively at that level so it's probably fine. Dream is a cool power but possibly a bit late. If there was any concern over lesser geas I'd switch the two. There's a bit more of a concern if they buy the levels off, but they get these abilities long after the game has made counters for them available, so I'm not too worried about. - TarkisFlux 01:13, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) The SLAs have been significantly altered and the rest tightened. What say thee? -- Eiji Hyrule 02:31, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

I still think detect thoughts and charm person might be better switched. Also, the dreamwalker aspect is too much at will. Maybe cast each once per sleep cycle per 4 hit dice, minimum one (so twice each at 8, thrice each at 12, etc). At will, sleeping for eight hours, it is pretty much bombard everyone you know and hate with nightmare until they fail their save, which will happen eventually. At the very least can only target the same creature once per sleep cycle. Otherwise, yeah, I'm okay with it. -- Jota 02:57, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

I forgot you can cast Nightmare multiple-times a sleep. Well, I'll fix that. Everything else seems good! -- Eiji Hyrule 02:59, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

I don't think you fixed the nightmare enough. Being able to deal 1d10 damage to up to 80 targets at any distance per day is a very powerful ability for a level 2 character. If multiple Mousa can gank the same target, then there are few enemies more dangerous than the level 1 Commoner mayor of a Mousa village. Even if they can't, in any setting where Mousa have a notable population, then the words "arcane caster" mean "one who swears allegiance to the Mousa". charm person at will is pretty nuts too. --Foxwarrior 20:51, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm not worried about nightmare, since thats pretty much the same as "get a bunch of your friends with heavy crossbows and gank a target". True, considerably more stealthy doing it from afar, but not that much more. Plus it's reliant on finding multiple mousa to work with you and strike low-hp targets. If it's really a problem (which I'm not convinced yet) I could just make it nonlethal or something.

Point on the charm person though. I've applied patches. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 05:07, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

A bunch of friends with heavy crossbows are loud, awkward to maneuver, and easily protected against. Heck, mundane objects like "walls" and "trees" are so good at preventing a hail of bolts from killing you to death, it's almost pointless to mention invisibility or dimension door. Nightmare, on the other hand, is guaranteed to catch the target unawares, and does not care about petty things like "the target is hiding on their own personal demiplane, guarded by multiple layers of walls of force".

To put it another way: at what level would a midnight assault by a moderate group of such creatures be significantly more likely to result in the PCs using clever tactics to beat it than a boring old TPK or a boring curbstomp? For some guys with crossbows, that would be maybe level 3 to 5. For a bunch of spoiled Mousa schoolchildren, that would be more like level 12 to 15, Wizard-level only. --Foxwarrior (talk) 00:49, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

While I still think it's unfeasible, fair nuff. Now you need a swarm of 9+ HD Mousa to pull it off. How's this? -- Eiji-kun (talk) 01:21, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, the Mousa peasantry still have the capacity to become masters of the arcane casters (if they're willing to risk retribution (how do you find out who nightmared you, anyways?)), but at least the sleep gank comes in at a reasonable level now.

I freely admit that this tactic's feasibility is less quantifiable than Leadership, but I like to have crowdsourcing as an option in my campaigns, even if you don't. --Foxwarrior (talk) 01:36, 2 October 2012 (UTC)