Talk:Arcanum Dragon (3.5e Monster)

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CR?

So, this is a gold dragon, but some stuff moved around and abilities changed. The increased casting ability alone would normally warrant a CR increase (probably at least +2 given the two higher spell levels available) among not having any elemental weakness or subtype to exploit or prepare against. Other than the –2 Strength and Constitution, it's just better. Slightly less damage on the breath, but you can't stop it (sorry resistance spells) is just terrifying. Wondering what the justification is here. --Ganteka Future (talk) 05:22, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

The Strength and Con were lowered, but Int and Cha were given a +2. Given this thing is supposed to be much more of a caster, I'm not sure that's a negative tradeoff. --Undead_Knave (talk) 06:22, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

The Str/Con to Int/Cha is an even trade. Breath DC and damage are nerfed in exchange for resistance busting properties. Hp drops due to the Con decrease, which on the level of HD being used is fairly significant. Normally casting would be more important, but dragons always had their casting as supporting material: They are meaty brawlers first. Even with the casting boost, they still remain behind actual casters for their listed CR, which is still intended. Practically it means they'll be a spell level ahead when it comes to their supporting material, rather than being an actual pure caster. IMO, close enough to not adjust CR. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 06:29, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

1) Breath DC is lowered by 1 and damage is lowered by an average of 2/age categories. Minimal decreases, especially given that it goes from being the easiest resisted energy type to the hardest.

2) HP lowers by 1/HD. While that does end up being a large sounding number, at almost every CR it's essentially the difference between 1 good vs bad damage roll. 8 damage is unlikely to make a difference for a level 5 party, and 41 most certainly won't for a level 27 party.

3)Casting is explicitly noted as their first thing and they're explicitly supposed to go for it first. This isn't intended to be a meaty brawler who has some tricks. It's an 8'4 wizard who is shredded.

4) They aren't up 1 spell level compared to a gold dragon of the same age category, they're up 2.

If they didn't have the casting increase, I'd agree that the changes (slightly weaker in exchange for not having an easily exploitable weakness and resistance) could be reasonably argued. As is, it's absolutely not true. --Undead_Knave (talk) 07:30, 19 August 2021 (UTC)