Talk:Sorcerous Origin - Pyroclastic Bloodline (5e Subclass)

Ratings

Blocked Rating	Ghostwheel opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.As noted earlier, it feels strong for a 5e subclass compared to the other options available to the parent class.

Discussion

As a whole, it seems overpowered when compared to the SRD5:Draconic Bloodline and Wild Magic sorcerous origins. Below are a comparison to the Draconic Bloodline origin.

Volcanic Legacy vs Draconic Resilience: VL and DR max HP increase is the same. And VL gains speed in place of DR's +2 AC (but DR is restricted to no armor). And VL gains an additional(?) cantrip. If this is not additional, it should be stated as "must choose Mold Earth or Control Flames as one of your cantrips".

Forged in Fire: You gain 2 every other level, and Draconic Bloodline gains no extra spells.

Living Cataclysm and Walk the High Road vs Elemental Affinity: LC has a choice of 3 damage types at use, EA has only 1 determined at origin. LC add damage equal to level, EA add damage only equal to Charisma modifier. LC adds Charisma modifier to initiative. EA spend a sorcery point to gain resistance to type determined at origin. WtHR gives environmental immunity to two environments.

Crack the Earth and Terraforming vs Dragon Wings: CtE causes damage at cost of reaction (again choice of 3 at use and equal to sorcerer level), plus an additional save vs effect. Terraforming gives non-comat ability to reshape/move stone for a limited time. DW give the ability to fly at cost of bonus action (restriction of no armor).

Pyroclastic Flow vs Draconic Presence: I assume PF becomes active at 18th level, but does not state so. It gives the following:

• burrow speed of 30.
• resistance to (choice of 3) damage type(s) for 1 sorcerer point
• bonus damage to 3 types of damage attacks with 2 effects (push and prone) on failed save (cost of bonus action)

DP allows you to attempt to charm or frighten a creature at the cost of 5 sorcery points

Suggestions:

1. Choose either Fire, Lightning, or Thunder damage type at origin for bonus damage and resistance.
2. Impose a cost of sorcery points for more of these abilities.
3. Reduce the double abilities at 6th and 14th levels
4. Change the "Forged in Fire" remove this or change it to allow access to the spells (in place of the sorcerer knowing them). Knowing additional spells is a Warlock ability, not a Sorcerer ability.

All IMHO, --Rlyehable (talk) 03:20, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Response

Apologies for leaving the poorly written versionin place, will post polished one within the month. It has been playtested and nicked into place since inception. Thank you for your review though. Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 02:35, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Ok, the more polished version of this has been posted. Hope this helps, One thing that I am additionally considering is moving the push effect from Pyroclastic Flow into a bonus action that expends sorcery points to accomplish, or just flat making it cost socery points (like some sort of specialist Metamagic). As I said earlier, thank you for your feedback. Always appreciated.Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 03:25, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Discussion v2

I'm really uncomfortable with changing the calculation rule for AC in the way you've done with Volcanic Legacy. Consider what happens on a one level sorcerer dip for a barbarian; or what what the AC of a Dwarven Pyroclastic looks like. Even assuming the net effect is only as good as permanent mage armor; you've still blown past the dragon sorcerer with the additional spells available. Or you would have if they weren't mostly sorcerer spells already. I think you originally intended these as additional spells known, rather than extending the sorcerer list. While simply extending the list is a much lower impact feature, you're already borderline with Draconic as it is. As increased spells known it's completely unacceptable.

Crack the Earth seems better than Elemental Affinity as it's generally better to deal more damage upfront to remove the threat of a combatant. It'll vary a bit at low levels, but where your Charisma usually stops improving at 8th level, Crack the Earth just keeps getting stronger. The initative bonus leans further on this playstyle of ambushed blowouts rather than prollonged fights. That's not a bad choice, and I'm nominally willing to allow it considering you give up the defensive benefit of resistence (though only until 18th when you get it back with extras). Terraforming seemed fine until I got to the last sentence. Not only is three spell-like effects too much for a single feature, but cheap tremorsense feels too strong. Pyroclastic Flow has similar overcrowding, two different effects in one feature.

The last feature clinches one of the big things that puts me off about this archetype. Not until 18th level do you have a feature that really cares about the sorcerer casting spells. Fixing the expanded spell list will help, but it'll be easy to run into overtuning issues. Between Charisma to initiative and Con to AC, this sorcerer can pretty casually dump dex. That can not only drive multi-classing (since all these features only require a one level dip), but don't do anything to encourage spellcasting. Unlike the Dragon's damage bonus; Crack the Earth works with weapons but requires melee attacks. Terraforming further discourages casting actual spells, since its effects are purchased with the same currency but cheaper and with less restrictions. I appreciate if you're trying to make an origin that's friendlier to front-line combat, but the core of a sorcerer archetype should always be spellcasting.--Vaegrim (talk) 17:31, 29 December 2017 (MST)

I totally understand where you are coming from on a bit of this. The basis of the class is loosely based on some pre-existing fiction, so I am trying to make sure that I can provide features that maintain that identity within the bounds of 5e. As it stands I have changed the status of this project to "under revision" because older "more experienced" me is chop shopping a lot of my previous projects. Ok, onto some nitty-gritty.

Expanded Spell List: Is a hat tip to WotC's now numerous UA articles and even the printed material of SCAG (specifically the Storm Sorcerer, I kinda borrowed a lot from it. Either in spirit or literally). The spell list itself is not extra spells known (like it was in previous revisions) but an expanded list of spells that the sorcerer may choose from. One of the considered routes for this was to provide the expanded spell list and permit the PC to get one of them as a known spell for free at each spell level. Depending on how the changes affect the class this may be considered more. As it stands, that is a solid NOPE. Due to the new nature of the "expanded spell list" it actually escaped me that a large number of the spells on the list are already Sorcerer spells. Oops. Well, its under revision for a reason right?

Volcanic Legacy It's a little bit Dragonblood, and a little bit Battlerager in terms of the defensive abilities. Super happy that no one was apparently upset about the addition of fluff in terms of language and cantrips. For the most part skirting dex was an implied option that was to facilitate player choice for a sturdy mage vice a flighty one. I do believe that adding some phrasing to curb the potential double-stacking of Con to AC if the Barbarian dips into this. I'll figure something out though, I just want to avoid copying the usual 13 + Dex formula to create an unarmored defense for the Sorcerer.

Crack the Earth Was not designed in line with Elemental affinity but instead to be a more explosive version of the Storm Sorcerer's "Heart of the Storm" feature. While Heart of the storm provides 1/2 it's level in damage in an AoE around the sorcerer, crack the earth is its full level in damage once. In a longer fight the Storm Sorcerer wins out, but its spending a bit of time playing catch-up to the Pyroclastic. I will review the damage aspect of this feature in depth though. Limiting the damage to spell's and sorcerer features might be a solid step to take. Dropping the damage down to 1/2 level, limiting the range in which it works, requiring them to use a spell of the origins damage types, or requiring that the sorcerer have points available, could also be an options. This is also the point in which the Cha to initiative comes online. Again, trying to nail down that "explosive force" motif without completely being unhinged.

Living Cataclysm It's the Storm Sorcerer's "Storm's Fury" ability from the same level with fire damage added as an option. I am really hoping the fire damage isn't too much of an issue considering it is the most or 2nd most resisted (can't remember, there's a gitp thread for it) damage type when you look at things in the 5eMM.

Terraforming So this feature is either going to be stripped down or removed entirely and converted into homemade spells. I love the concept of just making structures from the earth itself, but making a 6th level spell might be a better option as it can allow for an instantaneous duration to create permanent structures with. If it becomes a spell, I would feel more comfortable with them gaining the spell for free OR being able to cast it by expending sorcery points. The burrowspeed + tremorsense was a haphazard attempt at creating a movement option (tremorsense was so you can see where you are digging to). However BOTH abilities can easily be turned into spells.

Pyroclastic FlowWith the above change/removal of Terraforming, the first portion of this feature can be move to be a supplementary 14th level ability. TBH the 18th level feature of the dragon sorcerer was underwhelming for me and wan't something I felt was worth following. The push/knock down function was originally planned as a homebrew metamagic, but seemed really potent to just let anybody have. So i made it a function of the 18th level ability for the volcano mage that is the Pyroclastic bloodline. I cannot stand the fact that the Storm Sorcerer not only hands out immunity to a damage type, but it does so twice... I really do not like that sort of thing, but it keeps happening with wizards printed material. Anyhoo, I really liked the idea of sharing stuff with allies and was hoping that if I made a resistance feature 8 to 12 levels after the dragon sorcerer get theirs as a rider, I could do a little be extra with it. Which is where I'm at now with a choice of 4 types that can be shared for an hour.

Anyway, that's the kinda-sorta to-do list for this class. I hope that eases some of your apprehension with this subtype on the whole and provides a little bit of insight behind the various parts and pieces that make it up.--Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 09:51, 30 December 2017 (MST)

EDIT removed burrowspeed + tremorsense from terraforming. Added the option to cause structures created with terraforming to become permanent. Currently sitting at "rough draft" in terms of completeness for that feature. Created the Earthwalk spell to try and loosen up the reigns on the raw power of the class.--Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 13:06, 31 December 2017 (MST)