Talk:Shadow Spy (3.5e Class)

Ratings

Spanambula dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.

I want to like this class, but it's still missing some important chunks of needed material. See below for the ones I found so far. Now that things are more complete, I'm changing my rating to oppose. Aside from the (still) atrocious spelling and grammar issues, the capstone class features are pretty weak. But being able to kill creatures to gain permanent increases to all your mental stats? No, just no. Okay, even after making making fairly significant mechanical changes I'm keeping the dislike; this is still pretty much a hot mess.

Forgot your Author Box

Need me to add it back for you? -- Eiji-kun (talk) 02:58, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

sure and this is my first class creation,

basically a modified shadow rogue and shade blade aspects from both to make it more rounded non caster type and its weapons wont light up a room before attacking Ribjr (talk) 01:25, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Fixed the header and footer, its back again. Some parts you will want to fill out.

If you have any questions, just ask here on the discussion page (right here), people will try and help. I would, but a bit busy right now. Good luck! -- Eiji-kun (talk) 01:35, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

needs a look over for flaws and or constructive help looks pretty finished to me Ribjr (talk) 02:17, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

removed some redundant abilities from the shadow spy for a better balance and not so over powered Ribjr (talk) 05:12, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Authors can't rate their own articles (so it has been removed). The rating system is for peer review and evaluation purposes. Take a bit to read the ratings guidelines. Also, there's still a bunch of weird formatting. By chance did you start with an SRD article rather as a formatting source rather than using the class preload? --Ganteka Future (talk) 06:07, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

i took 2 classes made alterations to make one class that made sense removed spell chart and removed light blades replaced with shadow blades primary copy paste came from the shadow rogue for attack table some of class features came from shade blade on other wikiRibjr (talk) 06:45, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Incomplete?

i do not know what else needs to be done to be considered complete Ribjr (talk) 03:22, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Alright, the incomplete template has been updated. Those should be the only things left now that are missing since I just did a quick formatting update/check sorta thing. The summary that's missing is just a short sentence or two that describes the basics of the class. This shows up on the class listing navigation page. The missing balance is this: Dungeons and Dragons Wiki:Article Balance. You should give this a read. Also, in the future, please use the preloads when writing articles, since this was a mess this time. Additionally, as a note, class names and race names are lower-case when in sentences. I tried to fix this in the shadow spy class article here, but I may have missed a few. If you get that summary and balance added to the article, you can remove the Incomplete template from the page as well. You may also want to just delete that "Sample Encounter" portion on the bottom if you don't plan on posting one. --Ganteka Future (talk) 04:39, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

how do i add balance or summary description i would say its high or possibly very high Ribjr (talk) 05:41, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

i looked for ways to change balance or summary could not find it.

summary should be [ a scoundrel who stalks and lives in the shadows ]

balance is high to very high [ currently in play testing in campaigns] Ribjr (talk) 06:06, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Summary is a semantic property, and done sort of like a link. I've added it, and you can look at it if you want. The balance needed to be added in the author template at the |balance= parameter which you had not specified. Your balance indicator wouldn't have been accepted, and I've gone ahead and set it to High instead. This is probably not a VH class by default, though it might get there with optimization and touch attack flasks and UMD abuse like the typical rogue. I may have missed something that pushed it up though.

I know it's been said, but you really would be well served by using our templates in the future. Even if you copy and paste equivalent sections (tables, class features, etc) from elsewhere, using the template as a guide for those copies will make sure that you don't miss something we use here. We do a lot of things differently than other places - it's one of the things that comes with not being those other places. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 06:29, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

thanks now that i seen it edited i was able to see where it was Ribjr (talk) 07:16, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Incorp

Getting incorporeal at such low level, even with the limited number of rounds, strikes me as being above High level content. Note that it makes all your attacks automatically touch attacks. --Ghostwheel (talk) 20:07, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

i agree so ill move it to moderate secrets for some balance and choose something to replace it Ribjr (talk) 21:37, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I'd move it to a Greater Secret, as wizards (who are VH) get it earliest at level 15 (with Ethereal Jaunt. --Ghostwheel (talk) 21:40, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

ok i moved a couple of the abilities around like weapon specialization to lesser wich cant be taken til level 4 anyways which it is a level 4 feat and moved the incorp to greater secrets and the teleport :::to moderate secrets Ribjr (talk) 21:48, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Still Incomplete? No Capstone?

This looks like a neat class, but I have a few questions:

1st: No multiclassing ever? What are you, a paladin of shadow with multiclassing restrictions? Aside from some really atrocious spelling, all you really say on the matter is your shadow rebirth keeps you from doing so. Which leads into my next question...

2nd: What is Shadow Rebirth? You mention it three times, but never explain what it is.

3rd: So you have this Shadow Gem which holds all your powers and your life itself. It can be removed, but how? Some specifics on that would be nice. What I'd also like to see is an increase to your gem's power over class levels, or some mechanic where you gain an increased connection with it (among other reasons, it would mean having someone run off with it isn't a death sentence if you don't have access to a really good tracker or divination magic).

4th: What do the capstone, Shadow Mastery and Shadow Storm do? They represent the pinnacle of achievement of a shadow spy, but we have no idea what they are or what they do.

Seriously, this are some major shortcomings to what could otherwise be a pretty decent, flavoriffic class. You put some solid work into all the shadow secrets, so it seems odd that you leave off the capstones and what seems to be the core mechanic of your class. Spanambula (talk) 09:48, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

added description of shadow rebirth. whats this capstone you are referring to?

i don't know why shadow mastery and storm were gone i put them back in

take a look at modifications i made to shadow gem. Ribjr (talk) 23:43, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh my god, how did you make this class so much worse by finishing the incomplete parts? I don't know where to start. At some point soon I will try to write up a more complete critique, but in the meantime, ditch the Shadow Rebirth part that gives characters free INT increases, and for god's sake change Shadow Consumption to a non-permanent ability score increase, because otherwise this is one of the most broken things I've seen on the wiki in quite a while.

Oh, and "capstone" just refers to the class feature/features gained at the last level of the class, which are usually the most powerful, and provide incentive for the player to take the class all the way to the end. Spanambula (talk) 18:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

fixed some of the issues also the "capstone ability" shadow storm is almost over powered if used correctly 186d8 +30dmg per round if done right with +10 int bonus.don't bother mentioning the grammar that doesn't matter much. but my fiance at some point will fix it she cares about grammar i can't be bothered that is what proof readers and editors are for. Ribjr (talk) 20:34, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I realize not everyone is an English major, but while it isn't the worst sin, extremely poor writing quality reflects badly on the wiki as a whole. Either work on your articles in a sandbox on your user page (see the Getting Started entry under the Community side tab), or at the very least don't mark the article as complete until you or your proofreader have finished.

Also, I'm not seeing where the 30d8+4 damage is coming from in your example of Shadow Storm. Elven curved blades deal 1d10 damage for medium, which is 6d8 for a colossal weapon. Then you add 4 additional d8s from the +4 int bonus for a total of 10d8+9 (+5 enhancement, +4 int mod). What am I missing here? Spanambula (talk) 02:19, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

6d8 is the damage die. so +4 int mod +1 = 5 x 6d8. each modifier counts as a hit with the weapon.Ribjr (talk) 04:43, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Huh. "The storm deals damage equal to the shadow weapons damage plus one dice for every point of Intelligence bonus for a number of rounds equal to the Shadow Spy Intelligence bonus at the time of using this spell-like ability." I wonder why I thought we were adding, not multiplying. You may want to change the wording of the ability to reflect what you actually meant, then. Also holy crap, that's unbalanced. Assuming by level 20 your spy has an Int of at least 32 (16 base, +5 level, +5 tome, +6 item), that's +11, so using your elven curved blade, that would be 6d8+16 x 11, or 72d8+192, Reflex DC 31 for half. Assuming the spy is using this in conjunction with the tripled Int modifier secret, that's +33, which would be 204d8+1292, Reflex DC 53 for half every round for 33 rounds. That's broken amounts of damage, and really bad design, dude. Spanambula (talk) 06:29, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Ok, looking back over your math, it looks like you're multiplying the damage dice but NOT the additional damage from your Int modifier (or adding the weapon's enhancement modifier at all, which is weird, but w/e). That's not AS horrible, but a +33 to Int still puts the average damage up around 700 per round. Still really not okay. Spanambula (talk) 06:50, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

I did not create the ability just extracted it from another class Shade Blade.Also the +damage doesn't get multiplied.The Plus one dice refers to the base damage of the weapon chosen which is standard d&d rules. Also the DM in a current campaign im in said he wouldn't let me make a colossal weapon with the ability. I will edit the ability to only allow weapons of character's size. my current fire elf shade blade the version with out spells already programmed into the one sheet is level 6 with base 20 INT (18+2 race)+6 item will do pretty good damage when it gets to 20. also you could factor in +5 from wishes unless that uses same bonus as tomes.I do appreciate the help on this class build. Its currently being play tested by 2 friends and myself. I would love to have a real time conversation on this class if you could spare the time Ribjr (talk) 07:07, 6 February 2015 (UTC)